Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

I'd like to think I dislike this project for greater reasons than because a Ford presented it. Sadly there was part of me which agreed with the interlining of the rt line with the Eglinton line. My main objection to that though was it would make the extension west to the airport so cost prohibitive it would never happen. Now we still have a cost prohibitive plan so maybe I was wrong there. But my other objective was that if Eglinton went tunnel the whole way places like finch would feel that they should have tunnel privileges too and then nothing would be built because we don't have that kind of money. I can't be the only person who remembers Mama and how he was willing to use anything as a wedge issues to stop finch from being built. But the main reason I was against the line was that universally we all agree a drl needs to get funded but because of wants and we were going to spend so much money here and then as an afterthought think of the drl. That never made sense to me. And here we are with a watered down drl capacity wise and with no talk of a western extension

I view it the opposite.
Eglinton provided an excellent opportunity for elevated transit. The Ford MOU even mentioned elevated transit through Don Valley and near Kennedy - which is pretty close to the whole thing. If this was pursued, then likely the Golden Mile stretch would have been elevated too. With this elevation, it would have reduced the costs of many future transit projects.
On street LRT works where it can act as a branch with a common grade-separated trunk portion. Eglinton's plan did not allow for this at all and that's another reason it was so opposed.

 

[sixrings]

I view it the opposite.
Eglinton provided an excellent opportunity for elevated transit. The Ford MOU even mentioned elevated transit through Don Valley and near Kennedy - which is pretty close to the whole thing. If this was pursued, then likely the Golden Mile stretch would have been elevated too. With this elevation, it would have reduced the costs of many future transit projects.
On street LRT works where it can act as a branch with a common grade-separated trunk portion. Eglinton's plan did not allow for this at all and that's another reason it was so opposed.

But Rob never ever suggested the Eglinton east section to be elevated. I would have been ok with that suggestion and the conversation which would have been around that. But he never did suggest it. One can say all he cared about was that it wasn't elevated but let's not put words in the man's mouth when he was the mayor and had plenty of opportunities to explain himself.

I see LRT as transit to get people to GO stations and or SUBWAYS (DRL,YONGE, BLOOR). Plus it can transform a street. I don't believe LRT the way I am describing would be contested if the smarttrack RER stations were already up and the DRL was fully running. It shouldn't even be an either or. Both are needed. But the DRL is being slowed down (were only talking about the east side) and is being built with lower capacity, despite being projected to be one of the busiest lines, because we don't have enough money to build it properly since we are wasting money on the SSE. A go train branch could have served STC for a fraction of the price.

 

[BurlOak]

But Rob never ever suggested the Eglinton east section to be elevated. I would have been ok with that suggestion and the conversation which would have been around that. But he never did suggest it. One can say all he cared about was that it wasn't elevated but let's not put words in the man's mouth when he was the mayor and had plenty of opportunities to explain himself.

Except it was right in the MOU that Rob signed - elevated portions through Don Valley and near Kennedy.
He left the details up to Karen Stintz and the Liberal controlled Metrolinx.

 

[OneCity]

In summary my anti sse is about priority and lack of funds not about OneCity wanting a train station to his front door.

Interesting summary, even when you try to make a case with some decent points you still feel the need go off a personal rant and sadly continue to make things up to try to quash opposing views.

Obviously you have no clue where i live, and for that im very thankful given some of your posts. I'd argue its some of the biggest Transit City boosters that would rather hack the LRT near more doors then address network connectivity, connectivity of the main growth hub, impacts to all modes of travel, and providing equal replacement to other means of travel. These were all legitimate concerns with Transit City that couldn't be discussed fairly without attacks which really only started once Ford upended Transit City.

Start from the beginning of the thread and you'll see most here expected line 2 to be extended in some form. Many 'experts' were even pro subway and fully changed their tune becasue of Ford politically body slammed Transit City. And while I strongly agree Transit City was wrong, I do get why many would be upset at the timing of the cancellation. But the level of disrespect from outside political opposition, opposition media which frame the LRT as 'evidence based', and some posters here is completely out of line and disrespectful to those who actually live here and attempted to raise legitimate concerns.

I get you likely dont agree with much of what i said, but thats my view, you have yours, and It would be nice if we can have a debate without the personals nonsense

 

[raptor]

Drilling/Surveying work on McCowan Road, Grangeway Avenue and Consilium Place

 

[syn]

I'd like to think I dislike this project for greater reasons than because a Ford presented it.

Agreed. I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest people don't like it because Ford promoted it. There are plenty of actual problems with it that people have mentioned repeatedly.

People also have to remember that most people taking a line aren't just saving 5-10 minutes of their day, but 5-10 minutes per trip. Some people make the trip 2-4 times per day, meaning the actual benefit per person adds up to between 10 and 40 minutes per day (with an average of honestly being around 20 minutes per day).

I recall a little earlier in this thread it was suggested (I can't remember by whom) that a bus could do the job of an LRT as most people traveling in transit are going short distances.

The subway seems to be consistently argued for as a solution to downtown travel. That being the case, who is going from Scarborough to downtown and back 4 times a day?

Eglinton provided an excellent opportunity for elevated transit. The Ford MOU even mentioned elevated transit through Don Valley and near Kennedy - which is pretty close to the whole thing.

...

Except it was right in the MOU that Rob signed - elevated portions through Don Valley and near Kennedy.

This is a gross exaggeration. The MOU briefly mentioned the project being between Jane and Kennedy "in a tunnel except for short sections in the area of the Don Valley and, potentially, near the Jane Street/Black Creek and Kennedy Stations."

To frame this as Ford promoting above ground transit is dishonest. It was meant to be buried, with a few short exceptions.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I recall a little earlier in this thread it was suggested (I can't remember by whom) that a bus could do the job of an LRT as most people traveling in transit are going short distances.

The subway seems to be consistently argued for as a solution to downtown travel. That being the case, who is going from Scarborough to downtown and back 4 times a day?

That's a disingenuous statement, look at Finch Avenue (or Lawrence, Jane, or Steeles). Those are corridors where on-street LRT is perfect.

A lot of people don't just go to downtown. Victoria Park Station to Kennedy are still in Scarborough, and a lot of businesses exist along Bloor Street. The subway is a network. A lot of people go downtown, yes, but a good portion of people go along Bloor street, up into the Annex, into North York, etc. Remember, the subway is a network, with extremely well-integrated bus and streetcar lines.

 

[BurlOak]

This is a gross exaggeration. The MOU briefly mentioned the project being between Jane and Kennedy "in a tunnel except for short sections in the area of the Don Valley and, potentially, near the Jane Street/Black Creek and Kennedy Stations."

To frame this as Ford promoting above ground transit is dishonest. It was meant to be buried, with a few short exceptions.

It was clear that Ford would support a number of elevated sections, and Stintz, TTC, Metrolinx and the Liberals were in charge of determining the details. When Fords alcohol troubles started to show, all these groups decided that it was better to sabotage Toronto transit for a decade rather than give Ford some credit. The Liberals, gas plant style, sabotaged their own plan (the connected Eglinton-Scarborough was their idea accepted by Ford, not the other way around) for a cost of billions just for politics.

 

[syn]

A lot of people don't just go to downtown. Victoria Park Station to Kennedy are still in Scarborough, and a lot of businesses exist along Bloor Street. The subway is a network. A lot of people go downtown, yes, but a good portion of people go along Bloor street, up into the Annex, into North York, etc. Remember, the subway is a network, with extremely well-integrated bus and streetcar lines.

How many people in Scarborough will be making inter-Scarborough (or just past Victoria Park) subway trips 4 times a day?

When the 1 stop extension we being defended, one of the points is that very few people use the stations between STC and Kennedy. Why would that change with a subway? Why would people be making more inter-Scarborough trips than they do with the RT, especially when there's going to be fewer stops?

It was clear that Ford would support a number of elevated sections, and Stintz, TTC, Metrolinx and the Liberals were in charge of determining the details. When Fords alcohol troubles started to show, all these groups decided that it was better to sabotage Toronto transit for a decade rather than give Ford some credit. The Liberals, gas plant style, sabotaged their own plan (the connected Eglinton-Scarborough was their idea accepted by Ford, not the other way around) for a cost of billions just for politics.

No, it isn't clear. Now you're just making things up.

The MOU clearly states it would be entirely buried except for short sections in the area of the Don Valley (for obvious reasons) and potentially near the Jane and Kennedy (terminal stations in the original plan).

I think we all get it - you had the Liberals and "the left". Doesn't mean you have to blatantly fabricate ideas to suit your agenda.

 

[Rainforest]

It was clear that Ford would support a number of elevated sections, and Stintz, TTC, Metrolinx and the Liberals were in charge of determining the details.

How many Liberals does it take to design a transit line? Liberals is a large party, and 98% of their members aren't qualified to design transit and can't be tasked with that. Just like 98% of members of any other party.

When Fords alcohol troubles started to show, all these groups decided that it was better to sabotage Toronto transit for a decade rather than give Ford some credit. The Liberals, gas plant style, sabotaged their own plan (the connected Eglinton-Scarborough was their idea accepted by Ford, not the other way around) for a cost of billions just for politics.

His alcohol troubles prompted some media attacks, but his transit plan fell apart because he promised to get private money for Sheppard subway and failed to do so. The city council stirred and bolted to another plan. Remember that Stinz is not a Liberal and never was. She was, and possibly still is, a PC party member.

The city politics isn't aligned with the politics at provincial level, and it can't be assumed that everyone in favor of (mayor) Ford was a Conservative and everyone against him is a Liberal or a Dipper.

The connected Eglinton-Scarborough wasn't proposed my McGuinty's government. On the contrary, McGuinty proposed (when Ford won) to scrap Finch LRT and Sheppard LRT and pour the funding into Sheppard subway, but keep the Eglinton line unchanged, i.e. at-grade through the Golden Mile. Ford rejected that because he wanted no at-grade rail, and came up with the connected Eglinton-Scarborough proposal and a promise to fund Sheppard subway using private money. The latter part was proven to be impossible.

 

[Streety McCarface]

How many people in Scarborough will be making inter-Scarborough (or just past Victoria Park) subway trips 4 times a day?

When the 1 stop extension we being defended, one of the points is that very few people use the stations between STC and Kennedy. Why would that change with a subway? Why would people be making more inter-Scarborough trips than they do with the RT, especially when there's going to be fewer stops?

This is an argument for a 3 stop extension.
A trip is one way, not roundtrip. Say a person lives at Sheppard East or Lawrence East, goes to work in downtown and comes home after. That's 2 trips. Later in the day, they decide to visit a friend, go shopping, or visit a specialist (chiropractor, etc) or go to a class at any number of the other stations in Scarborough (whether it be Kennedy, Victoria Park, Warden, or the STC), or really anywhere else in the city. That's an additional 2 trips. The point is a 3 stop subway opens up the possibility of better access to the city. Instead of people using the subway just to commute, they're now using it to commute and run errands, similar to Old Toronto and North York.

 

[syn]

This is an argument for a 3 stop extension.
A trip is one way, not roundtrip. Say a person lives at Sheppard East or Lawrence East, goes to work in downtown and comes home after. That's 2 trips. Later in the day, they decide to visit a friend, go shopping, or visit a specialist (chiropractor, etc) or go to a class at any number of the other stations in Scarborough (whether it be Kennedy, Victoria Park, Warden, or the STC), or really anywhere else in the city. That's an additional 2 trips. The point is a 3 stop subway opens up the possibility of better access to the city. Instead of people using the subway just to commute, they're now using it to commute and run errands, similar to Old Toronto and North York.

How is replacing the current 6 stop rapid transit line with a 3 stop extension more beneficial for in-Scarborough travel?

Aren't people visiting friends and shopping now too?

 

[Hopkins123]

How is replacing the current 6 stop rapid transit line with a 3 stop extension more beneficial for in-Scarborough travel?

Aren't people visiting friends and shopping now too?

Because hardly no one lives, works or plays anywhere directly adjacent to the existing Lawrence East, Ellesmere, Midland and McCowan stations, that's why!

The subway and its alignment is city building 101. That massive hospital complex, Bendale community housing, Cedarbrae shopping complex a short feeder bus trip away from Lawrence and McCowan all capitalizes on having a metro there. Lots of redevelopable land at Sheppard where commercial and residential properties can infill.

 

[syn]

Because hardly no one lives, works or plays anywhere directly adjacent to the existing Lawrence East, Ellesmere, Midland and McCowan stations, that's why!

The subway and its alignment is city building 101. That massive hospital complex, Bendale community housing, Cedarbrae shopping complex a short feeder bus trip away from Lawrence and McCowan all capitalizes on having a metro there. Lots of redevelopable land at Sheppard where commercial and residential properties can infill.

Cedarbrae Mall is already a short bus ride from the Lawrence RT station. Moving it further East simply places it closer to one neighbourhood at the expense of another. Bendale is a short bus ride from McCowan station. Of course, everything is routed to STC since there isn't much demand at the other stations.

Putting a subway station here is not "city building 101", it's madness. The entire problem with Scarborough is that it's a fairly poor example of "city building" - dropping a subway along suburban routes isn't going to fix everything.

I find it hilarious that the 1-stop subway was supported on the basis that people go downtown and are barely using tge intermediary stops on the RT anyways. Now that it's a 3 stop plan apparently it's critical to inter-Scarborough travel since Scarberians are currently unable to visit friends and go shopping.

Will Rexdale be getting a subway too? A direct connection to Woodbine Centre will allow the residents of Rexdale to go shopping and visit their friends like the people of Scarborough.

Before someone suggests I just don't get it - I do. These stations will certainly provide more access in certain areas of the city. The problem is that it's a low density suburb and we're spending billions of dollars to do so. I don't think a multi-billion dollar investment makes sense to chop 5 minutes off a trip to Cedarbrae Mall, especially for access reductions elsewhere.

That's why it comes back to an LRT making the most sense if we're talking about inter-Scarborough travel.

 

[Rainforest]

Some people fail to understand that the subway extension will serve multiple purposes.

Elimination of the double transfer, bus to RT to subway: check. That will save 8-10 min each way for riders who end up on the subway anyway.

Shorter bus rides from the eastern part on Lawrence East: check. That includes Cedarbrae, but not just that location. Buses from the north don't need to cross the often-congested 401 over/underpasses, because they can connect to the Sheppard terminus: check. Potential for more density at the Sheppard terminus: check.

The 3-stop version of the subway extension will produce a better bang for the buck. I wouldn't mind the 1-stop version, as it still cuts many transfers, and would bring a closure to this lingering project. But if the current government is willing to pay for the 3-stop version, that's preferable.

Rexdale will not be getting a subway, because it is reasonably close to the TYSSE Finch West and Pioneer Village stations. Finch LRT and Steeles West bus will provide a good connection to those subway stations. If the Spadina subway only went to Eglinton West, and then a separate orphan line was running from there further north, then one could make a case for the subway extension once the said orphan line comes due for rebuild.

SSE will do for the eastern half of Scarborough what TYSSE is already doing for Rexdale.