Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[steveintoronto]

I didn't dictate anything. Voters did. If enough people agree maybe Politicians would agree. Very few do.

More importantly I never called you a Leftie. I was referring to the majority of Politicians from the Dowtown Left who oppose a better connection. You seem very aligned with there poltics. I'm a "Leftie" in many ways and so are many Scarborough residents and many Politicians who support a better connection for us. Liberals and NDP . You may be mislead bigtime from the Star. But there a lot of us.

You talk in circles.

Here's the quote I'm holding you to:

More importantly value is not measure only in $. Value to an outsider isn't the same value to people who live here.

So you want it all your way. Toronto "lives here" and you can tell that to Ford. And I'm not "aligned with their politics" at all. Quite the opposite. RER and standard gauge rail is the answer, not more ridiculous TTC gauge.

If you had RER running through Scarborough, you could travel outside as well as to Downtown. Think of the possibilities. If it doesn't frighten you.

You hate Downtown, and yet you want a subway that takes you there. How small can some people's lives be?

 

[OneCity]

You talk in circles.

Here's the quote I'm holding you to:

So you want it all your way. Toronto "lives here" and you can tell that to Ford.

I'm in circles? Right back at ya.

I want it my way? Compromise was always cool with me which Ive stated numerous times. Sadly the unaudited Transit City was fought till the death. Other solutions were available stubbornness was more of an issue for the opposition

Weve both made our points on the subway and I stand by what ive said. I believe your serious anger towards Ford is not really my issue to discuss to this extent that you bring to the discussion and direct my way. I wont be baited into going down that route or head completely off topic again. Sorry.

 

[Hopkins123]

Buck a vote. Appears it worked. It used to be $20.
Doug Ford accused of 'vote buying' after being filmed handing out $2o
bills to public housing residents

But hey, every Toronto municipal taxpayer is paying for it with a special levy. What other Toronto transit project received that treatment?

Doug didn't have to bribe me to vote for him. I did that all of my own free will and volition.

And none of you batted an eyelash when the Liberals cancelled gas plants, funneled secret monies totaling over $80 million to teacher's unions, made Ornge formally become the subject of an Ontario Provincial Police investigation for "financial irregularities", appointed Glenn Thibeault illegally, brought in the so-called "subway champion" who six years later turned out to be a "subway flop", etc. ... all just to buy votes. But I digress.

I don't think it's Doug's skeletons in the closet we ought to be worried about now; more likely what the Province's been spared from, saved from even.

 

[Hopkins123]

Torontonians weigh in on their transit priorities

"A plurality of poll respondents, or 37 per cent, said the relief line should be the TTC’s highest priority project. That was double the support for the second most popular project, the Scarborough subway extension, for which just 18 per cent of respondents said should be the priority."

And if that plurality of Torontonians is complaining about the relatively paltry $5 billion pricetag for SSE, they'll be clutching their mother's pearls over DRL Long's $20+ billion pricetag. The most efficient use of that money right now is subway expansion to the Scarborough Town Centre (via Danforth, Sheppard or even both). I'd hate to see us attempt to go all out on a DRL now in this political climate (austerity in Ontario, and an image/reputation challenged Federal government) and blow our shot at having a truly cross-regional rapid transit system by 2030. Keep it simple sillies.

 

[JSF-1]

The DRL is worth every penny we spend on it though. It will solve a problem this city has been struggling with for 30+ years. No amount of extensions into the burbs is going to fix the fact that transit into the core is way beyond its capacity. That fact that we have been talking about a Subway on Queen street for over 100 years now and there are still people content with pushing it off even further speaks to the sad state of affairs this City is in.

 

[zmonkey]

The DRL is worth every penny we spend on it though. It will solve a problem this city has been struggling with for 30+ years. No amount of extensions into the burbs is going to fix the fact that transit into the core is way beyond its capacity. That fact that we have been talking about a Subway on Queen street for over 100 years now and there are still people content with pushing it off even further speaks to the sad state of affairs this City is in.

The issue is, there are several pressing needs for the city. DRL is one. But something in Scarborough is as well. Another one, which people don't talk about much is the whole park lawn/lakeshore area with tons of new residents, its 10-12 KM from the downtown core and takes an hour on the TTC to get downtown. That is just sad. 10-12KM in a dense area shouldn't take an hour. Several areas of the city need something quickly. I moved to Toronto from Montreal in 2010, and it seems this city is on the exact same debate. I always thought Montreal politics were slow. This is taking it to a new level.

 

[JSF-1]

We can say there is transit need all over the city which is true, but its also true that the Core has the greater need, as you pointed out with the Waterfront and Parklawn areas as well as the DRL. The core is practically bursting at the seems while we argue over the suburbs; Toronto's priorities are in the wrong place as far as I am concerned. Its been like this for 30 years, the core is exploding while the Suburbs slowly grind to a halt yet its the suburbs that seem to be getting the most attention and resources on the transit file.

This problem itself even extends beyond the Core into the suburbs since most people still prefer to drive downtown instead of taking transit. Extending the subway to the Town Centre won't change the fact that all those riders who use it to go Downtown will still need to deal with the congestion on Line 1. All those developments along Sheppard still have a majority of people driving, because they aren't going to go to Yonge and Sheppard and have to deal with Line 1. You know what would change this though? Gee I don't know maybe another Subway into the Downtown core?

 

[OneCity]

The problem is the amalgamated City has pitted growth priorities vs. relief priorities. That insanity has led to a desire to cut corners and led us into further paralysis. Anyone sclaiming priority over others and trying to upend other areas choices are really just asking for higher costs and less building. This fighting to hack away at other areas has taken focus away from the other projects.

The Province taking subway away file from the amalgamated City is the best news and focus in the City can be put on improving surface routes moving forward, something it could attempt to fund the bulk of and the Province can expand the subway network for both growth and relief as it sees fit. As long as we start building it will be a huge step in the right direction.

 

[JSF-1]

Do you trust Doug and the province to actually build the proper transit though? Can they even deliver? Lets look at it like this, the SSE when all is said and done will prbbaly come out to about $5 Billion, if we do the smart thing and build the entire DRL from Osgoode to Don Mills that will easily be about $15 Billion+. Now assuming we still use the 1/3 split for financing the province on these to projects alone will be on the hook for approximately $6.6 Billion for just those two lines. Of course once you factor in RER at $15 Billion I begin to doubt greatly that the OPC will pull $22 Billion out of thin air. Also this hinges on whether the feds are willing to play ball and if the City is even capable of meeting its portion of the funding.

I don't believe Doug has Toronto's best interests in mind considering he seems to be hell bent on building out the Subway into the burbs while being oblivious to the existence of GO. That comment about the Subway to Pickering is an interesting one because he's stupid enough to do it. We also know he hates Downtown Toronto so apologies if I feel he would screw us out of the DRL which would also hurt the suburbs but they would just be collateral damage to him on his quest to stick it to the "downtown elites".

 

[syn]

And if that plurality of Torontonians is complaining about the relatively paltry $5 billion pricetag for SSE, they'll be clutching their mother's pearls over DRL Long's $20+ billion pricetag. The most efficient use of that money right now is subway expansion to the Scarborough Town Centre (via Danforth, Sheppard or even both). I'd hate to see us attempt to go all out on a DRL now in this political climate (austerity in Ontario, and an image/reputation challenged Federal government) and blow our shot at having a truly cross-regional rapid transit system by 2030. Keep it simple sillies.

If we assume the cost for the DRL Long is $20 billion, then $5 billion isn't 'relatively paltry' at all - it's an absurd cost.

The DRL Long adds desperately needed capacity, something we've needed for a long, long time as @JSF-1 has ably pointed out. It will also add at least 10 or so stations in critical areas - unlike the SSE which removes a net total of 4 stops on the network. It also does nothing to address regional transit.

 

[syn]

The issue is, there are several pressing needs for the city. DRL is one. But something in Scarborough is as well. Another one, which people don't talk about much is the whole park lawn/lakeshore area with tons of new residents, its 10-12 KM from the downtown core and takes an hour on the TTC to get downtown. That is just sad. 10-12KM in a dense area shouldn't take an hour. Several areas of the city need something quickly. I moved to Toronto from Montreal in 2010, and it seems this city is on the exact same debate. I always thought Montreal politics were slow. This is taking it to a new level.

Sure, but $5 billion for one subway stop is not the answer.

You're right though - there are major transit needs all over the city. SSE supporters often take a rather mypoic view of the situation, as though Scarborough is the only part of the city that requires expansion.

I'd say Rexdale residents would argue transit there is much worse than it is in Scarborough.

 

[JSF-1]

I'd say Rexdale residents would argue transit there is much worse than it is in Scarborough.

Etobicoke in general is pretty worse off than Scarborough on the transit front. At least Scarborough got its RT built.

 

[Hopkins123]

Sure, but $5 billion for one subway stop is not the answer.

You're right though - there are major transit needs all over the city. SSE supporters often take a rather mypoic view of the situation, as though Scarborough is the only part of the city that requires expansion.

I'd say Rexdale residents would argue transit there is much worse than it is in Scarborough.

Rexdale is spoiled compared to Scarborough. One can get from Martin Grove and Finch to Kipling subway station in around 20 minutes via the Highway 27 Rocket. Likewise the trip from the upper echelons of Kipling Avenue to the subway is a relatively short breeze when the 45E is running. There's also the 186 Wilson Rocket and we're spending over a billion dollars to connect Humber College to Finch West.

Scarborough by contrast hasn't gotten a transit improvement in eons. The only thing that John Tory has done is create a new weekends-only shuttle to Bluffers Park.

A diagonally cutting subway extension to SCC (and eventually Malvern) is a small ask by comparison. This one extension would make most of the former borough accessible to rapid transit and benefit all commuters. Pitting SSE as the antithesis to DRL or rapid transit built anywhere else in the city is precisely the kind of fear mongering that drove the Conservatives back into power.

 

[Hopkins123]

If we assume the cost for the DRL Long is $20 billion, then $5 billion isn't 'relatively paltry' at all - it's an absurd cost.

The DRL Long adds desperately needed capacity, something we've needed for a long, long time as @JSF-1 has ably pointed out. It will also add at least 10 or so stations in critical areas - unlike the SSE which removes a net total of 4 stops on the network. It also does nothing to address regional transit.

No matter what is built - even dusting off the cobwebs and rebirthing the aborted light rail plan of David Miller lore - it will still cost multi billions of dollars. Are we really getting this riled up over a few billion dollars differential in pricetags? What if we added another billion but it granted us three additional stops... Brimley-Eglinton, Lawrence East and depending on the alignment a further stop past SCC at McCowan and Sheppard or Centennial College? Higher cost but serves a greater number of commuters, still oppose it then?

To argue in a vacuum that demand is greater elsewhere in the city therefore we must backburner this project indefinitely only works to destroy lives. The commute of someone living in Morningside Heights won't get any shorter or easier because there's new subway at Pape, but with a new subway at McCowan will. Frankly, I don't think the SSE opponents really want anywhere east of Victoria Park Ave to get anything at this point.

 

[syn]

Rexdale is spoiled compared to Scarborough. One can get from Martin Grove and Finch to Kipling subway station in around 20 minutes via the Highway 27 Rocket. Likewise the trip from the upper echelons of Kipling Avenue to the subway is a relatively short breeze when the 45E is running. There's also the 186 Wilson Rocket and we're spending over a billion dollars to connect Humber College to Finch West.

Scarborough by contrast hasn't gotten a transit improvement in eons. The only thing that John Tory has done is create a new weekends-only shuttle to Bluffers Park.

A diagonally cutting subway extension to SCC (and eventually Malvern) is a small ask by comparison. This one extension would make most of the former borough accessible to rapid transit and benefit all commuters. Pitting SSE as the antithesis to DRL or rapid transit built anywhere else in the city is precisely the kind of fear mongering that drove the Conservatives back into power.

Thank you for demonstrating just how out to lunch many SSE supporters are when it comes to the transit experience of those who live outside of Scarborough.

The 191 Rocket from Martin Grove and Finch to Kipling is currently 31 minutes - and that's right now, with Sunday traffic. On a weekday is probably closer to 40 minutes.

The 45E from "the upper echelons of Kipling Avenue" to Kipling Station is about 35 - 40 minutes.

Spending $5 billion on a one stop extension doesn't make travel within Scarborough any easier, and it's arguably going to be worse given the increased bus reliance. All of your examples demonstrate that the SSE is an incredibly poor and shortsighted use of money.