Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Anonymous2000]

If there is one problem it is with the tunnel alignment. It does not to be tunnelled. They could simply reconfigure the big curve and just use the current RT route but I think a better option would be to use the RT route to the Hydro corridor and then take it NW to McCowan near Lawrence. The amount of money {to say nothing of time and disruption} saved would be huge and those savings thru trenching thru the Hydro corridor and at grade along the RT route could build a new station at McCowan & Lawrence to serve the area and especially SGH.

I agree with using the Hydro corridor. However, instead of going to Mc Cowan, I think a better idea would be to have it go north alongside Brimley, we can atleast keep it trenched through Thompson Memorial Park until we get to a point where we have to start tunneling again. This should give Scarborough Centre 2 stations instead of one.

As much as I like your idea about serving SGH, trenching the subway to Mc Cowan may be a bit difficult as it have to deal with Highland Creek and you may have to tunnel a little early before you even reach Mc Cowan, thus increasing the cost of tunneling. I'm not a construction expert, but from looking at your proposed map from google maps, this may prove challenging. But overall I like your idea of trenching the subway through the hydro corridor.

 

[drum118]

If I recall, the Sheppard subway was originally supposed to be built to Victoria Park. But unfortunately, it was scaled back to Don Mills. Perhaps because of a cost-savings measure by the Rae government in the early 90's. I also seem to recall during Miller's first term as mayor (2003-06), that there were plans to bring the Sheppard subway east to Victoria Park.

It was because of Harris who said, here a Billion dollars and that it. It cost just under a billion to get to Don Mills with the plan going to Victoria Park.

It made more sense going to Victoria than Don Mills, but $$ did the talking not doing.

You also got to thank Harris for killing off the cities that make up Toronto today since they would have created more density than there today considering no one wanted today city in the first place. Good Old Mikiee screwing everyone.

During the Sheppard EA, it was proposed to extend the line to Victoria, but planners saw a need to run the LRT to Don Mills so it could connect to the Don Mills LRT. Going to Victoria as a subway is the right thing to do and start the LRT on the surface there. Need a station between Don Mills and Victoria.

 

[salsa]

So let me see. In your opinion North York is not a suburb?

I should have been more clear. When I said the suburbs haven't seen as much development, I was talking about neighbourhoods of the typical suburban build form (i.e post war, arterial roads, car-friendly). There are some exceptions, but for the most part these areas haven't had a lot of growth as you can see in this Urban Toronto map.

As for North York, I mentioned it because a few areas have had a lot of development (Yonge Street, Sheppard line, Don Mills). However it is still a suburb.

 

[Hopkins123]

It was because of Harris who said, here a Billion dollars and that it. It cost just under a billion to get to Don Mills with the plan going to Victoria Park.

It made more sense going to Victoria than Don Mills, but $$ did the talking not doing.

You also got to thank Harris for killing off the cities that make up Toronto today since they would have created more density than there today considering no one wanted today city in the first place. Good Old Mikiee screwing everyone.

During the Sheppard EA, it was proposed to extend the line to Victoria, but planners saw a need to run the LRT to Don Mills so it could connect to the Don Mills LRT. Going to Victoria as a subway is the right thing to do and start the LRT on the surface there. Need a station between Don Mills and Victoria.

In light of SmartTrack, they should probably just revive the subway extension to Agincourt GO and call it a day. BRT can takeover east of Kennedy to Rouge Hill. Yes, subway over the whole Sheppard corridor makes little sense, but would be justifiable through northwestern Scarborough which has population densities in excess of 6001-7500 people per sq km.

 

[Hopkins123]

I should have been more clear. When I said the suburbs haven't seen as much development, I was talking about neighbourhoods of the typical suburban build form (i.e post war, arterial roads, car-friendly). There are some exceptions, but for the most part these areas haven't had a lot of growth as you can see in this Urban Toronto map.

As for North York, I mentioned it because a few areas have had a lot of development (Yonge Street, Sheppard line, Don Mills). However it is still a suburb.

Seems like growth is following the natural path of a Sheppard Subway extension into Scarborough Centre to me. Look at those dots occurring at Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy. Even Bathurst/Sheppard has a new development marker.

It's seemingly no longer a question of whether to build it and they'll come; they've already arrived and now it's transit that's having to play catch up.

 

[Anonymous2000]

It was because of Harris who said, here a Billion dollars and that it. It cost just under a billion to get to Don Mills with the plan going to Victoria Park.

It made more sense going to Victoria than Don Mills, but $$ did the talking not doing.

You also got to thank Harris for killing off the cities that make up Toronto today since they would have created more density than there today considering no one wanted today city in the first place. Good Old Mikiee screwing everyone.

From reading Chapter 13 of Ed Levy's Rapid Transit in Toronto, It was the Rae government who scaled back the Sheppard Subway and he did this 1) because Ontario was so deep into recession and 2) he wanted to balance with building Eglinton West. I agree it should have been built to Victoria Park from the beginning. The debates at Cityhall wouldn't have been so toxic and the appetite for extending it further into Scarborough might have been a little stronger than it is today.

Link to the chapter: http://levyrapidtransit.ca/chapter-...ttcs-rapid-transit-expansion-program-1992-94/

Here are some publications. Both from which Bob Rae was in office (1990-95).

The Lets Move Program 1991

Rapid Transit Program Summer 1993, notice how Sheppard (highlighted in bold blue) scaled back to Don Mills

Harris's Common Sense Revolution didn't come until 1995.
Your right about Harris screwing Toronto over by the amalgamation, but he still continued construction, most likely under pressure from Mel Lastman who was mayor of North York at the time. However, he did kill the Eglinton West Subway.

Thanks for the clear up regarding Miller's first term on the proposal for Sheppard

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

In light of SmartTrack, they should probably just revive the subway extension to Agincourt GO and call it a day. BRT can takeover east of Kennedy to Rouge Hill. Yes, subway over the whole Sheppard corridor makes little sense, but would be justifiable through northwestern Scarborough which has population densities in excess of 6001-7500 people per sq km.

The distance between Agincourt and STC is not that big.

Maybe that is the direction we are going in after all, but I remain a skeptic. No amount of subways will make STC a desirable place for investment.

 

[BurlOak]

I agree with using the Hydro corridor.

To use the SRT corridor for the subway, I would take space away from SmartTrack. It also requires the Kennedy Station to be rebuilt and realigned - meaning closure of the station for years.

 

[nfitz]

To use the SRT corridor for the subway, I would take space away from SmartTrack. It also requires the Kennedy Station to be rebuilt and realigned - meaning closure of the station for years.

Which is why it's off the table. A more likely and cheaper scenario, is running the subway up Midland from Eglinton to the SRT (or hydro corridor). You might even be able to elevate it as you approach Lawrence.

 

[BurlOak]

The curve from Eglinton to McGowan is already smooth enough to allow the subway to stay in the road ROW. All other streets are 90 degree turns and require expropriation.

 

[M II A II R II K]

To save even more money the STC extension can be replaced with the already existing SRT spur to act as a shuttle service to STC so it gets its own personal RT stop, and not be a 6km tunnel. Even better would be to use the saved money to extend the SRT from Ellesmere to Rouge Hill where it connects with Line 5 at the University.

 

[nfitz]

The curve from Eglinton to McGowan is already smooth enough to allow the subway to stay in the road ROW. All other streets are 90 degree turns and require expropriation.

True, but the report this week did show that you'd save hundreds of millions with the Midland alignment - and you get the bonus of having an east-west station at Scarborough Centre, so you could put it near where the current station is - leaving open the possibility of a future extension in the far future along the SRT alignment to Centennial and Progress/Sheppard. In terms of development of Scarborough Centre - which the report says is driving this entire thing, it let's you protect the option of future stations at Bellamy and Brimley.

And what do you have to expropriate - a one-story Dollarama and a parking lot. You might even find a way to make money off that!

 

[ssiguy2]

In light of SmartTrack, they should probably just revive the subway extension to Agincourt GO and call it a day. BRT can takeover east of Kennedy to Rouge Hill. Yes, subway over the whole Sheppard corridor makes little sense, but would be justifiable through northwestern Scarborough which has population densities in excess of 6001-7500 people per sq km.

I disagree with BRT.

I am a big fan of BRT when done right like Miss/Ott/Peg where there are real rapid transit bus-ways. In this case however I think the plan is excellent because it has long seamless routes. STC to Kipling, UTS to Pearson, Mount Dennis to Kennedy.............you can travel long distances with few or no transfers. People hate transfers and any system that gets rid of them is a better one.

Again this was one of the many faults of TC.............completely disjointed and endless transfers. TC was very rider unfriendly. Longer routes are faster and more pleasant as you can just sit back and relax with your IPAD or book and not wonder when you next transfer is to say nothing of the bother of getting up/off the route if you are carrying bags, a stroller, or are disabled or elderly.

This is exceptional well thought out {although I think Eglinton/UTS still has too many stops} and I think the only real question is the route from Kennedy to STC as using McCowan in a tunnel is too expensive and those funds could be more constructively used elsewhere.

Who came up with this new plan, the City, Tory, TTC, or MLX?

 

[Anonymous2000]

Who came up with this new plan, the City, Tory, TTC, or MLX?

My gut feeling tells me its a combination of both the City staff and Tory. I admire what Tory is trying to do, which strike a compromise between those who want a subway to STC and those who want LRT. My concern is as I previously stated is that he is potentially setting himself up for defeat in the 2018 municipal election. I looked at the election results from 2014 particularly on the 10 wards that make up Scarborough and only 1 ward (Gary Crawford's ward) voted for Tory. The other 9 voted for Ford. This is not something I would dismiss completely. He will have to do a lot more to convince Scarborough that this new plan will work.

 

[BurlOak]

How much will this subway extension cost?

$100M - TBM
$100M - TBM launch site
$66M/km tunneling x 6km = $400M
$50M/km track = $300M
$33M/km signaling = $200M
$33M/km ventilation/emergency exits = $200M
$400M STC station

$1.7B total

Maybe this is not that bad of a plan after all. It frees up the rail corridor for SmartTrack and RER and still connects STC. Too bad the budget did not have $2.5B, otherwise the line could get to Sheppard and we could have the Lawrence Station.