Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[robmausser]

Well at least we still have GO Expansion to take pride in, meanwhile Montreal still has... whatever exo is...

The key difference between GO and EXO is the York CN Bypass built in 1967. That completely transformed the situation here. Its crazy to think about what a single train line has done to Toronto. No CN Tower, no Skydome, no All day GO service, or GO-RER without the York Bypass.

REM is being built in Montreal specifically because they never built a freight bypass. They can't do with EXO what we are doing with GO-RER. Because the lines downtown are still being used for freight.

While REM will be done first, our advantage with owning the rail lines downtown will showcase how much better the GO-RER situation will be (if done right of course) It just takes more time to rebuild an existing transit system, compared to starting from scratch.

 

[tsm1072]

Metrolinx (according to their Wayfinding Standard) doesn't think you should know the line # until you're inside the station. I know, it's ridiculous.

The sign does show what types of services are accessible at the station (in this case Bus and Subway). It is pretty standard for other agencies just to have the station name and not list the line (see: Montreal, London, Paris). When the start thinking about stations as network transfer points (between various lines and bus routes), signage can quickly get complicated and messy:

Even more so if you wanted to include important bus routes or transfers to other systems (viva, miway, GO, etc.). I can understand why they wanted the standard to be simplified to show the mode(s) and station name from the outside, with routing information presented in detail when you get into the station.

 

[JSF-1]

The key difference between GO and EXO is the York CN Bypass built in 1967. That completely transformed the situation here. Its crazy to think about what a single train line has done to Toronto. No CN Tower, no Skydome, no All day GO service, or GO-RER without the York Bypass.

REM is being built in Montreal specifically because they never built a freight bypass. They can't do with EXO what we are doing with GO-RER. Because the lines downtown are still being used for freight.

While REM will be done first, our advantage with owning the rail lines downtown will showcase how much better the GO-RER situation will be (if done right of course) It just takes more time to rebuild an existing transit system, compared to starting from scratch.

Now all we need to do is get the "Missing Link" built to open up Kitchener to electrified RER service; and figure out how to get CP off of Mid-town to open up Peterborough to GO Service (as well as give GO a bypass around the Union Station corridor) I am also certain Mid-Town will be the main line used for train service to the airport in Pickering whenever it is built.

 

[daniel_kryz]

The sign does show what types of services are accessible at the station (in this case Bus and Subway). It is pretty standard for other agencies just to have the station name and not list the line (see: Montreal, London, Paris). When the start thinking about stations as network transfer points (between various lines and bus routes), signage can quickly get complicated and messy:
View attachment 320879

Even more so if you wanted to include important bus routes or transfers to other systems (viva, miway, GO, etc.). I can understand why they wanted the standard to be simplified to show the mode(s) and station name from the outside, with routing information presented in detail when you get into the station.

I agree that it can get cluttered, but the service/line indicator is the second most important information one needs before entering a station. Especially in a city like New York, with subway entrances sometimes being on every corner, the service indicator lets you know you're going down the right stairs. I know we have far less stations in Toronto, but still the indicator reassures riders that they're entering the right building.

Also, indicating the mode (subway, light rail) isn't enough. For most people, it's irrelevant what specific technology is provided in the station. They want to know where they're going; what destinations this station has to offer. So displaying a light-rail symbol doesn't do the job. They should just display the Line 5 icon, and in the future... the Line 3 icon.

 

[W. K. Lis]

According to information posted in this thread in 2016, the 5 AVENUE ROAD bus will be renumbered to the 13 AVENUE ROAD bus, when the Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT opens. The 7 BATHURST bus will be renumbered the 19 BATHURST bus. What about the 6 BAY bus?

 

[JSF-1]

According to information posted in this thread in 2016, the 5 AVENUE ROAD bus will be renumbered to the 13 AVENUE ROAD bus, when the Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT opens. The 7 BATHURST bus will be renumbered the 19 BATHURST bus. What about the 6 BAY bus?

That's almost certainly been changed now that Finch West will be Line 6. I don't see a point in renumbering the Bathurst bus at the moment since there won't be a Line 7 any time soon. I assume they will change the 6 Bay to something else and keep the 7 Bathurst since there is no need to change it yet.

 

[M II A II R II K]

There could be a Line 7 if the Crosstown splits at Science Centre.

 

[tsm1072]

I agree that it can get cluttered, but the service/line indicator is the second most important information one needs before entering a station. Especially in a city like New York, with subway entrances sometimes being on every corner, the service indicator lets you know you're going down the right stairs. I know we have far less stations in Toronto, but still the indicator reassures riders that they're entering the right building.

Also, indicating the mode (subway, light rail) isn't enough. For most people, it's irrelevant what specific technology is provided in the station. They want to know where they're going; what destinations this station has to offer. So displaying a light-rail symbol doesn't do the job. They should just display the Line 5 icon, and in the future... the Line 3 icon.

Mode =/= Technology. Here are the modes according to metrolinx:

Remember that Metrolinx isn't thinking of just Toronto when developing wayfinding, they are trying to create a wayfinding standard that will work across the entire region, and over a long period of time. You can see they took a lot of inspiration from London, who has some of the most iconic transit wayfinding in the world. If you check out the standard, you can understand the thought process behind it:

http://www.gosite.ca/engineering_pu...TX Wayfinding Design Standard v3.4 190830.pdf

 

[daniel_kryz]

Mode =/= Technology. Here are the modes according to metrolinx:
View attachment 320883

Remember that Metrolinx isn't thinking of just Toronto when developing wayfinding, they are trying to create a wayfinding standard that will work across the entire region, and over a long period of time. You can see they took a lot of inspiration from London, who has some of the most iconic transit wayfinding in the world. If you check out the standard, you can understand the thought process behind it:

http://www.gosite.ca/engineering_public/DesignStandards/DS-03 MTX Wayfinding Design Standard v3.4 190830.pdf

It's harder on a regional scale, but I do think that providing route iconography at entrances helps people identify the function of the station. Providing route iconography also conveys whether it is an interchange station and what directions one can go by using the station.

For example, as someone that wants to go to Union, I could walk up to Bay Station and see the Line 2 indicator. I can then decide to...
a) Take the train and then transfer to Line 1 at the next station, or
b) Walk 200m to a Line 1 station (St. George or Bloor-Yonge)
More information = more choices & less confusion. In my opinion, the route indicator is very important information. Perhaps it could be provided on another sign next to the doors, to avoid clutter.

I did read the Wayfinding Standard and I was mostly fascinated by it. I do have a few complaints, but they're definitely an improvement over our current mosaic of signage that is agency-oriented, not customer-oriented. I do hope that the other agencies sign on.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's almost certainly been changed now that Finch West will be Line 6. I don't see a point in renumbering the Bathurst bus at the moment since there won't be a Line 7 any time soon. I assume they will change the 6 Bay to something else and keep the 7 Bathurst since there is no need to change it yet.

I can see the Ontario Line be given a number, Line 7. All the single digits should be reserved for rapid transit lines. Would have preferred that they went with "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", etc., but likely that will happen by the 22nd century.

 

[Johnny Au]

I can see the Ontario Line be given a number, Line 7. All the single digits should be reserved for rapid transit lines. Would have preferred that they went with "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", etc., but likely that will happen by the 22nd century.

By the time the Ontario Line opens, the Scarborough RT would be replaced with an extension of Line 2, allowing the Ontario Line to be Line 3 and assume the blue colour of the former Scarborough RT.

 

[DirectionNorth]

You can see they took a lot of inspiration from London, who has some of the most iconic transit wayfinding in the world.

London ... Ontario? (This is a joke)

Mode =/= Technology. Here are the modes according to Metrolinx:

Remember that Metrolinx isn't thinking of just Toronto when developing wayfinding, they are trying to create a wayfinding standard that will work across the entire region, and over a long period of time.

Signs up at Science Centre!

View attachment 320775
View attachment 320776
View attachment 320777

On a more serious note, I made some crude mock-ups of what non-cluttered signage might look like.
Top: The strip on top of station entrances.
Bottom: The "full" signage version. Could be at entrances, could also be on platforms/mezzanine.

:

 

[Coolstar]

The key difference between GO and EXO is the York CN Bypass built in 1967. That completely transformed the situation here. Its crazy to think about what a single train line has done to Toronto. No CN Tower, no Skydome, no All day GO service, or GO-RER without the York Bypass.

REM is being built in Montreal specifically because they never built a freight bypass. They can't do with EXO what we are doing with GO-RER. Because the lines downtown are still being used for freight.

While REM will be done first, our advantage with owning the rail lines downtown will showcase how much better the GO-RER situation will be (if done right of course) It just takes more time to rebuild an existing transit system, compared to starting from scratch.

We're also lucky we already have through-running tracks at Union Stn. All we have to do is reconfigure/rebuild the tracks and platforms for more frequent through-running service instead of an expensive RER tunnel.

 

[ARG1]

I can see the Ontario Line be given a number, Line 7. All the single digits should be reserved for rapid transit lines. Would have preferred that they went with "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", etc., but likely that will happen by the 22nd century.

The TTC have already stated that they want the Ontario Line to become the new Line 3.

As for the Letter Lines, Metrolinx have stated that they want the GO lines to be shown using letters, similar to what they were until the mid 2000s:

So in general, Local Rapid Transit lines like Subways, Metros, and LRTs will be numbered, meanwhile Longer distance RER lines will be letters.

 

[daniel_kryz]

The TTC have already stated that they want the Ontario Line to become the new Line 3.
View attachment 320903

As for the Letter Lines, Metrolinx have stated that they want the GO lines to be shown using letters, similar to what they were until the mid 2000s:

View attachment 320905
So in general, Local Rapid Transit lines like Subways, Metros, and LRTs will be numbered, meanwhile Longer distance RER lines will be letters.

No, they said that using letters for GO Lines is an option... but the preferred solution is "train line lozenges".