TheTigerMaster
Superstar
What plans has MX changed recently?
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What plans has MX changed recently?
drum118
Superstar
rbt
Senior Member
Metrolinx wants to continue with this type of agreement. Absolutely nobody is willing to make a bid on one though; this delayed GO Expansion and Union Station Expansion tenders. Ontario Line got the same type of response.
It's not an Ontario problem though, just a Metrolinx problem. Infrastructure Ontario continues to find numerous willing contractors for medical P3s (Hospitals, etc.).
Tunafish13
Active Member
Just as a side note, they are installing some of the additional barriers around the Pharmacy stop. I can try and get some photo's later if you guys want
smallspy
Senior Member
Cost is the biggest reason. It costs money to build them (especially in tunnels), and it costs money to maintain them.
Speed? Not a factor at all. Trains are able to operate at full speed over them in the straight leg of them (and there are turnouts that have been built that allow for speeds in excess of 200km/h on the diverging). (Yes, there may be rules regarding the speeds allowed over they, but those are generally not due to physical restrictions.)
Failure? Absolutely. Not just of the turnout itself, but also of the signal system that ties in with it.
Thus, all these things must be balanced against the increase in flexibility they allow. For instance, the TTC's standard is about every 4km of subway line.
Dan
robmausser
Senior Member
I think its a transit problem.
Building a hospital on a plot of land is somewhat straightforward.
Building a transit line is much much more complex and riskier, and deals with many more issues (like the problems at Eglinton station)
I think the private sector is realizing that building transit is not profitable for them and not worth the risk.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
RTG is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin
Crosslinx is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin and Aecon
So, yea, I'm not expecting the delivered product to be high quality, if the Ottawa LRT is any indication of what we can expect
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I've heard the term vertical construction vs horizontal construction to describe what you're talking about
Horizontal construction (highways, transit lines) are spread across dozens or hundreds of sites, so there are a lot more site-specific things that can go wrong.
Vertical construction (buildings, towers, etc...) are located at a single spot, which reduces the amount of things that can go wrong.
If this were the case, wouldn't we see similar troubles in other jurisdictions?
crs1026
Senior Member
^There’s lots of literature demonstrating that large infrastructure projects are risky. Only a tiny minority come in on time and budget.
The problem is the political pressure that governments face when projects hit bumps. A lot of the motivation behind P3 is so that in theory, politicians and bureaucrats can use P3 to insulate themselves from risk. “The contract is air tight, the contractor has to deliver on time and on budget or they don’t get paid” kind of thing. In theory, it’s a silver bullet for the knee jerk “heads must roll” rabble that emerge whenever something goes wrong. Frankly I partly blame the media who get far more sales from reporting the bumps as major scandals than by trying to sort out the fine points. (How many of us remember how much of the TYSSE overruns and delay came from which problem?)
Unlike TYSSE or, just to pick an example, the Florence LRT network or the Oslo airport train, or the Seattle road tunnel, Crosstown has never faced a major shutdown-and-regroup event. It is proceeding pretty well. Its painful impact on the surface community was pretty predictable, although the pols did little to set expectations. I don’t think one can paint it as a project fiasco. But.... lawyers..... and a political organization (ML) that puts a high priority on positioning themselves as a lily-white fountain of unending good news, truth being dispensible.
I’m not advocating low standards, but “On time and on budget” is a claim that can seldom be achieved. If Crosstown turns out well, it won’t have been as big a wait as some might claim. What has been missing all along is transparency.
- Paul
The problem is the political pressure that governments face when projects hit bumps. A lot of the motivation behind P3 is so that in theory, politicians and bureaucrats can use P3 to insulate themselves from risk. “The contract is air tight, the contractor has to deliver on time and on budget or they don’t get paid” kind of thing. In theory, it’s a silver bullet for the knee jerk “heads must roll” rabble that emerge whenever something goes wrong. Frankly I partly blame the media who get far more sales from reporting the bumps as major scandals than by trying to sort out the fine points. (How many of us remember how much of the TYSSE overruns and delay came from which problem?)
Unlike TYSSE or, just to pick an example, the Florence LRT network or the Oslo airport train, or the Seattle road tunnel, Crosstown has never faced a major shutdown-and-regroup event. It is proceeding pretty well. Its painful impact on the surface community was pretty predictable, although the pols did little to set expectations. I don’t think one can paint it as a project fiasco. But.... lawyers..... and a political organization (ML) that puts a high priority on positioning themselves as a lily-white fountain of unending good news, truth being dispensible.
I’m not advocating low standards, but “On time and on budget” is a claim that can seldom be achieved. If Crosstown turns out well, it won’t have been as big a wait as some might claim. What has been missing all along is transparency.
- Paul
drum118
Superstar
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
It's hundreds of millions. This is to be expected especially given Covid.
cplchanb
Senior Member
I suspect that the bidders who low balled ie crosslinx, bid on incomplete drawings and did not factor much for extras. They surprise everyone with an amazing number, but as shown, once changes are needed the dollars just keep on piling up.
Source: I work in the buildng construction consultant industry
drum118
Superstar
This is a design and built based on info provided by the city, Metrolinx and TTC, but you can only factor in so much for unknown before pricing yourself out of the picture on that info.
We have just seen a 1950 error surface unknown to TTC and everyone that will have to be added to the bill. It possible TTC knew about it and hope the low bidder would have to pickup the tab for the cost to fix it. My experience says Metrolinx will be on the hock for that cost since no bidder would assume there would be a structural problem during the bidding stage.
COVID-19 delays is not the responsibility of anyone, but a fact of life where cost will increase over time as well delay the project. If ML wants x opening day that requires more manpower, then they will have to pickup the extra cost to meet that date.
Unless plans are updated as work take place over the years on things, you will run into very few surprise that will cost more to do the work. One can look at St Clair W stations where drawings were not updated over the years only to have the Ministry of Labour shut down the site until all the electrical system drawings were updated after a number of workers were almost kill doing the work. Extra cost had to be pickup by TTC.
I have bid on x project based on drawing supply to all bidders only to find out once you open something up a great surprise that caused delays and extra cost is found.
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aquateam
Active Member
I think it's a well-documented consequence of any megaproject. Hospitals also have cost overruns, like the CHUM superhospital in Montreal. It's just that hospitals are generally less expensive (e.g. compared to the $9 billion Eglinton LRT) so the same percentage overrun is less in absolute value.
Lowballing offers, optimistic projections, unknown unknowns, etc. The bigger the scope, the bigger the potential for delay and cost increases.
Lowballing offers, optimistic projections, unknown unknowns, etc. The bigger the scope, the bigger the potential for delay and cost increases.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Forest Hill Station rises (and I say rises because the station is taller than all but one of the surrounding buildings in the neighborhood)
Here’s what the other side looks like
Here’s what the other side looks like