Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[TheTigerMaster]

First of all, hitting each and every intersection just when it turns red will be a very rare misfortune. Let' say for simplicity that the chance of hitting red at each intersection is 1 in 2. Then the chance of hitting 6 reds in a row will be 1 in 64, or less than 2%.

Actually running some numbers, between Victoria Park and Kennedy Station there are six lights. Let's say the probability of hitting a red at any given intersection when travelling along Eglinton is 40%. That means that the probability of hitting three or fewer reds is around 82.5 percent. The probability of two or fewer reds is 54.5 percent. And in practice, the impact of the red lights is mitigated, because much of the time at a red is spent loading/unloading passengers.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link.

Two brainstorming ideas. Reports were that Eglinton Station is behind the rest and will delay the opening of Line 5.

Originally thought that Cedarvale Station could be used as the eastern terminal for Line 5 until the Eglinton Station is ready. However, Avenue Station could be used as the eastern terminal instead, but have the buses continue to shuttle service between Eglinton Station and Cedarvale Station as an earlier opening. Cedarvale Station would be used as a transfer station with Line 1.

Don't know how far along the trackwork would be, but if usable couldn't the trains just bypass Eglinton Station (no stopping). Then we can still use Cedarvale Station as the only transfer station with Line 1, but it would provide service to eastern riders.

 

[Amare]

And in practice, the impact of the red lights is mitigated, because much of the time at a red is spent loading/unloading passengers.

Except for the fact the stops will be farside stops, which renders that point mute and further exemplifies the need for signal priority.

 

[Haydenpoon]

I don't know if this has been posted or not, but I found drone footage of Mount Dennis Station on Youtube.

 

[Coolstar]

I don't know if this has been posted or not, but I found drone footage of Mount Dennis Station on Youtube.

Yep I posted it on the Mount Dennis thread.

 

[smallspy]

In the case of St.Clair, the streetcar service is better than replacement bus service that I can agree on. However, there are still quite a few operational issues that continue to hamper the service to date. The largest of which: lack of active signal priority.

I would argue that the TTC's own practices and rules hamper the operation of the line far more than the lack of any signal priority does.

The line actually operated reasonably well its first couple of years after the opening of the ROW, even without priority - and infinitely better than it did before the ROW was built. And the new shelters were light-years better than standing at the curb, hoping that the operator would see you waiting on a rainy night. But the ongoing implementation of slow-orders at intersections and the lengthening of running time from end-to-end - along with the TTC's inability to balance that running time properly along the line - have led to a service that is now maybe only as good as it was before the ROW was installed. Sure, the cars at least come at regular intervals, but they don't come as frequently, and they take longer to get to where you're going.

Dan

 

[Amare]

I would argue that the TTC's own practices and rules hamper the operation of the line far more than the lack of any signal priority does.

The line actually operated reasonably well its first couple of years after the opening of the ROW, even without priority - and infinitely better than it did before the ROW was built. And the new shelters were light-years better than standing at the curb, hoping that the operator would see you waiting on a rainy night. But the ongoing implementation of slow-orders at intersections and the lengthening of running time from end-to-end - along with the TTC's inability to balance that running time properly along the line - have led to a service that is now maybe only as good as it was before the ROW was installed. Sure, the cars at least come at regular intervals, but they don't come as frequently, and they take longer to get to where you're going.

Dan

All true and valid points. Which is yet another fear I have with the TTC operating the Crosstown line.

How long will it take for the TTC to screw around with this LRT's operation? We'll just have to wait and see how bad they'll degrade the service quality after the line opens.

 

[W. K. Lis]

All true and valid points. Which is yet another fear I have with the TTC operating the Crosstown line.

How long will it take for the TTC to screw around with this LRT's operation? We'll just have to wait and see how bad they'll degrade the service quality after the line opens.

The trouble with the TTC are the suburban Councillors on the TTC board of commissioners (et al.), who don't use the TTC (except for photo ops), who make sure that the crowds on board the buses, streetcars, light rail, or whatever, give way to the almighty single-occupant automobile.

 

[Jonny5]

I would argue that the TTC's own practices and rules hamper the operation of the line far more than the lack of any signal priority does.

The line actually operated reasonably well its first couple of years after the opening of the ROW, even without priority - and infinitely better than it did before the ROW was built. And the new shelters were light-years better than standing at the curb, hoping that the operator would see you waiting on a rainy night. But the ongoing implementation of slow-orders at intersections and the lengthening of running time from end-to-end - along with the TTC's inability to balance that running time properly along the line - have led to a service that is now maybe only as good as it was before the ROW was installed. Sure, the cars at least come at regular intervals, but they don't come as frequently, and they take longer to get to where you're going.

Dan

This is probably heresy on this site, but with years of personal experience, I have come around to believe the biggest waste of time on the 512 is the underground St. Clair West station loop.

 

[Rainforest]

This is probably heresy on this site, but with years of personal experience, I have come around to believe the biggest waste of time on the 512 is the underground St. Clair West station loop.

That's true, not heresy. That loop design is silly, it forces both WB and EB streetcars to go on a long detour, single file (except for a short two-track section in the north). I guess it would be too expensive and disruptive to rebuild it though.

To my knowledge, no silly loops like that are being designed or proposed for any of the new light rail lines.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's true, not heresy. That loop design is silly, it forces both WB and EB streetcars to go on a long detour, single file (except for a short two-track section in the north). I guess it would be too expensive and disruptive to rebuild it though.

To my knowledge, no silly loops like that are being designed or proposed for any of the new light rail lines.

They could fix it, but that involves funding. Guess what gets hit when there are orders for budget cuts?

 

[Rainforest]

They could fix it, but that involves funding. Guess what gets hit when there are orders for budget cuts?

To be fair; there are many small and medium scale improvements waiting for funding. Even a fairly transit-friendly government would fund lots of projects elsewhere before it would even consider rebuilding the St Clair West loop. The St Clair line is relatively minor, and is reasonably functional as is.

I think we can live with not rebuilding the St Clair West loop, as long as we learn the lesson and don't build more loops like that

 

[smallspy]

How long will it take for the TTC to screw around with this LRT's operation? We'll just have to wait and see how bad they'll degrade the service quality after the line opens.

Here's the thing - at least once the infrastructure is in place, it ain't likely to be going away.

Should the TTC get a CEO who is actually willing and capable of seeing through the required improvements, and not just pay lip service as the past two have - along with a Mayor who is actually willing to put the Toronto Transportation Services in its place - there is no reason why a lot of those improvements that many of us here and elsewhere have been talking about for many years actually happen. And the infrastructure will already be there in many places on the streetcar network to allow for it.

But so long as we don't have those two things, we will continue to sit here and see streetcar service slowly deteriorate. Hopefully, it doesn't reach the point of no return - we've already been there once.

This is probably heresy on this site, but with years of personal experience, I have come around to believe the biggest waste of time on the 512 is the underground St. Clair West station loop.

While there's no doubt that likely the best thing to fix the St. Clair West Loop would be a small thermonuclear device (okay, maybe that would be a slight amount of overkill), I never found that it was really that great a detriment to the operation of the line in its current configuration. Once in a while there would be some delay on one of the streetcar platforms that would result in a backlog out to the ramps but those were very seldom, and I haven't seen it happen once since the Flexities were introduced - although admittedly I have not been in the area as much over the past couple of years.

Something else to consider - if the station were to be rebuilt, what would be the ideal form for that to take? While most people who get on and off of the streetcars here, there are a not-inconsequential number of transfers from the streetcar to the bus routes. And also keep in mind that the ridership levels on the streetcars are higher to the west than to the east of the station, and every once in a while the TTC throws out the idea of once again running a short-turn service from St. Clair West to a point west - either Oakwood or Lansdowne. (And don't forget that this service did actually exist until the late 1990s or early 2000s.)

Dan

 

[Rainforest]

Something else to consider - if the station were to be rebuilt, what would be the ideal form for that to take? While most people who get on and off of the streetcars here, there are a not-inconsequential number of transfers from the streetcar to the bus routes. And also keep in mind that the ridership levels on the streetcars are higher to the west than to the east of the station, and every once in a while the TTC throws out the idea of once again running a short-turn service from St. Clair West to a point west - either Oakwood or Lansdowne. (And don't forget that this service did actually exist until the late 1990s or early 2000s.)

Dan

A small change would make that loop more efficient:
- For the Westbound cars: stop at the south side of the passenger hall, continuing almost on a straight line from the tunnel entrance to the tunnel exit. Ideally, there would be two westbound platforms and two westbound tracks.
- For the Eastbound cars: they would loop around the passenger hall, just as they do today, but would not compete for the single track with the WB cars.
- Short-turns in either direction would still be possible. For example, a car arrives from the west, enters the loop, unloads there. Then goes around the loop, turns right, stops at one of the WB platforms, and becomes a ready-to-board WB car.
- Last but not least, all streetcar and bus boarding areas would remain connected at the same level, no need to go up/down stairs or cross tracks (except when going to the 2-nd platform) in order to transfer.

But the south side of the passenger hall would need to be ~20 m wider, and the escalators landing would have to be moved north a few meters to make more room for the WB platforms. That's much easier to do at the design stage than to retrofit the existing underground structure.

 

[Jonny5]

Something else to consider - if the station were to be rebuilt, what would be the ideal form for that to take?

For a fantasy rebuild: no loop or underground is needed at all for the streetcars. Keep them on the surface straight through with a simple surface-underground access to the tunnel that is under the street already. This further allows for the removal of the adjacent stop to the east, and maybe the Bathurst stop eastbound and westbound too. Move the westbound Vaughan Road stop to the nearside to compensate for the gap. This also solves the issue of the ramps seemingly needing a full rebuild every five years.