Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[smallspy]

It is 2019. There are two years of construction left according to the experience in this room and Metrolinx too.

The ION system in Waterloo has been running tests for a year to ensure vehicles clear posts, gates go down and signals work. A year in and no date for revenue service.

What does the TTC know that Waterloo region does not because I see no time for testing here.

Well, for one it's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

The signalling system for the Crosstown will be a greenfield installation, meaning that there was nothing there before it. It makes the installation and testing process much easier, as you aren't going around chasing gremlins which may be caused by older systems still in place and active.

The equipment for ION has been installed on an active rail line, meaning that they've needed a lot of testing to ensure that it is working properly regardless of the vehicle that were running on the line.

And then there's the fact that the Region of Waterloo postponed the awarding of the tender for the on-board equipment installation until last year, and the installation has not gone nearly as smoothly as envisioned. The Crosstown signalling system contract has already long been awarded, and even if the installation and testing takes longer than they figured, they've still got lots of time at this point to figure things out. (Obviously, this will change as we get closer to opening, and especially if portions of the line aren't completed by their scheduled timeline.)

Even the Spadina extension ran non-revenue service - if I recall for 3 months - September to December before revenue service.

1 board period - 6 weeks. That is Standard Operating Procedure for the TTC and subway openings. There was lots and lots of testing prior to that, however.

Let’s check this.

Rocket train - known vehicle. Flexity - new vehicle.

The Toronto Rockets were not a known vehicle when it was first delivered, and required a year of interface testing before it was cleared for revenue service. And if you're referring to the ATC/ATO signalling system on the TYSSE, there was months of signalling systems testing and integration that was done with both the vehicles and the extension independant of each other before that final board period.

Yes, the Flexity Freedoms are a new vehicle, which is why the first ones are being delivered now - almost(-ish?) three years prior to the opening of the line.

Controlled underground ROW with no competing traffic - no mixed opaeration vs underground and above ground Agni h the TTC has no experience with.

Except that the TTC has experience with both of those modes in isolation of each other. And they also have experience now with ATO-to-manual control migration points as well, and have for a very long time.

I would love to see this on time, but someone says there is barely a hole in the ground at Mount Pleasant let alone a station. Add in the time to test and I don’t understand how this can be done.

I too am concerned about the timeline of the project, but seeing as how it is still almost three years away from seeing any revenue passengers, I don't think that it's quite yet time to start sweating about it. If we're still having this same discussion in a year's time, well, then its a different story.

Dan

 

[lead82]

Based on what I'm seeing at my local station - Forest Hill, opening in 2021 isnojnthe optimistkc side. The like will most like open in 2022. There are at least three more years of heavy construction remaining. That means that most construction will be wrapped up in 2021, but the TTC will surely need time to test the system and make it operational. That will likely bleed into 2022. I suspect the line will open either late spring or early fall for 2022.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Based on what I'm seeing at my local station - Forest Hill, opening in 2021 isnojnthe optimistkc side. The like will most like open in 2022. There are at least three more years of heavy construction remaining. That means that most construction will be wrapped up in 2021, but the TTC will surely need time to test the system and make it operational. That will likely bleed into 2022. I suspect the line will open either late spring or early fall for 2022.

There are no off-street bus palaces at Forest Hill Station. There will be on-street connections with the TTC buses. A closure of Bathurst Street one block north of Eglinton Avenue West is still being proposed to accelerate construction of Forest Hill Station.

From link.

 

[lead82]

Mark my words - the acceleration will not happen. The wealthy home owners in this area are large to let Bathurst traffic onto their calm streets for 6 months. True there is no bus terminal here (none needed), the construction looks to be behind schedule. They are just starting to put the concrete walls of the station box. Without the acceleration, this will take over a year to do in a piecemeal fashion.

 

[BurlOak]

Mark my words - the acceleration will not happen. The wealthy home owners in this area are large to let Bathurst traffic onto their calm streets for 6 months. True there is no bus terminal here (none needed), the construction looks to be behind schedule. They are just starting to put the concrete walls of the station box. Without the acceleration, this will take over a year to do in a piecemeal fashion.

Why should anyone be happy with traffic on a local street?
The are saving the City millions of dollars for some inconvenience to themselves. At least there could be some type of property tax waiver that eases the discomfort.

 

[lead82]

Why should anyone be happy with traffic on a local street?
The are saving the City millions of dollars for some inconvenience to themselves. At least there could be some type of property tax waiver that eases the discomfort.

I'm not saying they should be happy about it. The construction has its toll on businesses along the stretch as well as the residents who live on Bathurst and Eglinton Avenue as the traffic is backed up most of the day. If we can accelerate the construction all will be better off. It's short term pain for long term gain. All will benefit and so the ask is for the wealthy hoke owners whose land values will rise most once construction is completed to also chip in and best done of the burden for 6 months.

 

[lead82]

Besides, we are talking about a very small area for the detour. It could be as simple as having traffic divert from Bathurst to Vesta drive, then Mayfair, then Eglinton and then back on Bathurst. Alternatively they can split the traffic so SB goes Bathurst, Wembley, Hilltop, Eglinton and back on Bathurst and NB goes Bathurst, Eglinton, Mayfair, Vesta and back onto Bathurst. It's literally only a block we are talking about so not a massive area. Besides, the area already gets infiltration of traffic that wants to get onto Allen Rd side turns are prohibited. This would allow turns once again. So it's a trade off that I personally think is a huge win for the neighborhood in the long term. Many businesses are struggling and 3 more years of construction will mean many will go under.

 

[crs1026]

^Those land owners will undoubtedly see their property values rise thanks to proximity to higher order transit. ( Yeah, that means their tax assessments go up, but in the long run they make out like bandits). So I don’t have much sympathy per se.

However, it’s hard to understand how a disruption of this size was sprung on the neighbourhood at this fairly late date in the construction. That reeks of Metrolinx’ habitual lack of transparency towards the community.

This is a real opportunity for anti-upload folks. “Is this typical of how the Province intends to handle subway construction?”

I’m sure that Ford will be nowhere near the community outreach, so it’s a great opportunity to demonstrate that, like all bullies, he is a coward at heart and not interested in “the people”. And yeah, this community is not one he can afford to annoy. It’s not that they are affluent, it’s that they are connected.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

When they were building the Yonge Street Subway, they detoured the streetcars along the side streets on temporary streetcar tracks. From link.

A Witt Train led by Witt 2980 turns from Church Street onto Maitland on one of the diversions to the YONGE Streetcar service while the Yonge Subway is being built. The date is June 7, 1952. Photo by Julian Bernard, donated by Curt Frey.

A Witt Train led by Large Witt #2998 runs along another downtown sidestreet during one of the diversions caused by Yonge Subway construction. The year is 1952. Photo by Julian Bernard, donated by Curt Frey.

 

[whatever]

A Witt Train led by Witt 2980 turns from Church Street onto Maitland on one of the diversions to the YONGE Streetcar service while the Yonge Subway is being built.

I had no idea that was done. Is this the origin of the Church St trackage? I know it's used today for short-turns and diversions, but was it originally there as an alternate to Yonge?

 

[steveintoronto]

I had no idea that was done. Is this the origin of the Church St trackage? I know it's used today for short-turns and diversions, but was it originally there as an alternate to Yonge?

[...]
Hard as it is to believe, Yonge Street was not the original main north-south street of Toronto. And while it quickly became so, for decades after the founding of the City of Toronto in 1834, other streets still challenged it for prominence.

One of those streets was Church, paralleling Yonge from Front Street to Bloor (at the time, the northern boundary), Church Street was so named because it was the site of the first church in the old Town of York (sitting on the site where St. James Cathedral now stands - a brief history of St. James Cathedral can be found off-site here). Other Churches followed, including the Metropolitan Cathedral and St. Michaels. [...]

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4133.shtml

 

[narduch]

Why should anyone be happy with traffic on a local street?
The are saving the City millions of dollars for some inconvenience to themselves. At least there could be some type of property tax waiver that eases the discomfort.

If you use Google Maps or other sort of apps they are already pushing you off the main roads here and into the local streets.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

When they were building the Yonge Street Subway, they detoured the streetcars along the side streets on temporary streetcar tracks. From link.

A Witt Train led by Witt 2980 turns from Church Street onto Maitland on one of the diversions to the YONGE Streetcar service while the Yonge Subway is being built. The date is June 7, 1952. Photo by Julian Bernard, donated by Curt Frey.

A Witt Train led by Large Witt #2998 runs along another downtown sidestreet during one of the diversions caused by Yonge Subway construction. The year is 1952. Photo by Julian Bernard, donated by Curt Frey.

If only they did this today each time there is consturtion on a streetcar line.... then they wouldn't have to bustitite lines all the time

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Why should anyone be happy with traffic on a local street?
The are saving the City millions of dollars for some inconvenience to themselves. At least there could be some type of property tax waiver that eases the discomfort.

And, Metrolinx really wants that intercestion closed, which will really negatively impact people who live in that area.

 

[WislaHD]

Eglinton and Bayview has already been de facto basically shut down for the better part of the past 6 months. It isn't the end of the world.

People find ways around.