News   Jan 25, 2022
 461     3 
News   Jan 25, 2022
 794     0 
News   Jan 25, 2022
 351     0 

Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

JSF-1

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
586
Reaction score
1,186
Location
Woburn
We had dedicated provincial government funding for transit and a provincial government removed it on a whim. Why would we want that scenario to come back, where every provincial budget brings the possibility of cuts ordered by MPP's from outside of Toronto and a change in provincial government could mean slash and burn? I think the current funding arrangement is more stable, and those who change it are more accountable to people in Toronto.

Provincial funding is a zero sum game. The City will yank out the equivalent amount of funding, if not immediately, over time it will happen.

Federal funding would be the above but ten times worse.

Maybe I am too cynical? But I can't see it playing out any other way.
The problem is the City alone as it currently is can barely afford to pay for the TTC. Sure its not getting worse (usually) but it hasn't exactly got better either. Unless the City were to increase taxes which is a poison pill to any political campaign nothing will get better. Farebox revenue as well isn't a stable source of income either, yet the TTC is expected to make up a disproportionately large portion of its operating budget using it. Sure the current system more "stable" but the status quo is not helping either, it's more or less just causing us to kick many cans down the road.
 

ViewfromtheLake

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 15, 2020
Messages
10
Reaction score
14
I believe the City of Toronto still has one of the lowest property taxation rates in the province.So plenty of scope for raising funds from property taxes. There should be further room to build ridership As improvements come on stream. But funding should and needs to include some provision of assistance from the province on a longer term basis as well.
 

nfitz

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
24,591
Reaction score
5,092
Location
Toronto
I believe the City of Toronto still has one of the lowest property taxation rates in the province.
The rates go down when the property value goes up.

But the tax per household is not the lowest in the province. And then if you compare a similar sized house and lot size, to what someone with that size house and lot size pays in other places, Toronto property taxes are much higher. If lot sizes are smaller, then the cost to provide services to each lot (roads, sidewalks, snow clearing, water mains) is lower per household.

Just because my property value has quadrupled since I bought it, doesn't mean I can afford to pay quadruple the taxes.

That being said, property tax increases have been below inflation for many (but not all years) in Toronto in the last couple of decades. Generally council aims to increase the budget by the rate of inflation, which then ends up with individual increases below inflation, because the property tax base has increased (though also impacted the other way, by the slow shift of the tax burden from commercial to residential). Some relatively small (10 percentish) increases wouldn't be unreasonable.
 

Steve X

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Messages
2,243
Reaction score
1,759
Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.
 

rbt

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
6,963
Reaction score
2,882
Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.

Agreed. Multi-unit residential is (usually) taxed at a different rate. Owning a single building with 6 units, or 3 duplexes, or 6 individual condo units aren't so different in practice.

Income tax already asks about your primary residence. Add a tick-box to allow sharing that information with the relevant municipality, compare/match against the name on title (so kids can't easily claim the parents investment), and change multi-unit to primary and non-primary residential rates.

I prefer income tax for registration rather than direct with the municipality as it immediately prevents games like spreading units between 6 different municipalities by having a single field.
 

trtcttc

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
89
Reaction score
326
They've done several experiments deploying additional management/oversight to a line, and service (particularly bunching, on-time departures, etc.) noticeably improves every time. It's not a cheap solution but it's one of the few experiments that's been reliably successful.

You might argue automated electronic oversight can do the same thing but when you look closer you find they already have that; every driver already regularly gets information telling them whether they ahead or behind schedule.
I think you’ve kind of answered where the problem is. If additional oversight seems to be so helpful, and the electronic means are there, it seems like the issue is the drivers are not following that digital information the TTC has paid for. Somehow after all this digitization, the TTC that is so sorely underfunded it has to pay someone to stand at a street corner manually recording the streetcar times on a notebook.
Similarly, we’ve paid for (in $ and in closures) for this ATC systems, and the TTC union is fighting tooth and nail to try to argue single operator on the subway is “unsafe” when it is safely operated in systems that’d be many times the size of the TTC. Can we fund the TTC better? Sure, but I think the people these funds are paying for may also be part of the problem. This is not even mentioning the unvaccinated drivers causing safety issues for transit riders, the multi-year insurance fraud, and on and on the list goes.
 

Jonny5

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
3,391
Reaction score
1,134
The problem is the City alone as it currently is can barely afford to pay for the TTC. Sure its not getting worse (usually) but it hasn't exactly got better either. Unless the City were to increase taxes which is a poison pill to any political campaign nothing will get better. Farebox revenue as well isn't a stable source of income either, yet the TTC is expected to make up a disproportionately large portion of its operating budget using it. Sure the current system more "stable" but the status quo is not helping either, it's more or less just causing us to kick many cans down the road.
You've captured what I think will happen. The province says it will fund 30% of the TTC operating subsidy and the City will cut their funding of the subsidy by 30% because "we can barely afford it" and "taxes are too high already". It's a net zero gain in funds and invites a whole host of problems, unless the province makes the City to agree to some kind of "guaranteed minimum funding," but we've already seen those guarantees can be torn up on a whim any time some Ontario government politicians feel like it because "we can barely afford it" and "taxes are too high already."

I also think this province won't touch it without 100% control and that could mean stuffing it into Metrolinx or something, which is a horrible outcome!
 

felix123

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
295
Reaction score
376
The important thing is that it isn't supposed to work like this.
A functioning city (that levies property tax) sets the budget first, and then calculates the mill rate * property tax rate needed to collect enough revenue to cover their services.

If the TTC requires x dollars, the city is supposed to calculate the correct mill rate * property tax rate in order to pay for that line item. They don't say, "we're raising property taxes arbitrarily and then we'll see what we can do with the money."

So if you're a property owner in Toronto, accept whatever increase comes to your already low rate - with a smile and a nod - and feel good that you're helping fund the TTC, and hope that the Crosstown succeeds.
 

evandyk

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
4,553
Location
St. Lawrence
As long as people keep electing politicians whose main campaign plank is no property tax increases higher than the rate of inflation, that's how it's going to be done.

Of course, they did add an "additional levy" (which is not to be referred to as a property tax increase!) a few years ago, which was a good step.
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
10,936
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
As long as people keep electing politicians whose main campaign plank is no property tax increases higher than the rate of inflation, that's how it's going to be done.

Of course, they did add an "additional levy" (which is not to be referred to as a property tax increase!) a few years ago, which was a good step.
The bad news is that the users from the 905 only pay the TTC fare, which is 68.0% (2018) of the cost. The remaining 32% of covered by the people and businesses of Toronto. From link.
 

vic

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
1,306
Reaction score
1,473
Location
Junction Triangle
Primary residences should be taxed at their realistic value but those investment residences should face more heavy property tax.
Wouldn't this end up shifting higher taxes to renters? I thought this was an issue that people already complain about (though I don't really know the details myself).
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
10,936
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
One of the many reasons for closing Line 1 on weekends was because of the construction of the new station under the Eglinton Station for Line 5. However, there was also construction on the Line 1's Eglinton Station box itself. Unless changed from the original plans, they were planning to extend the station box on Line 1 northward.

201311_eglintonstn_appc.jpg

See link, dated November 17, 2013.

I haven't heard of any plans to shift the station boxes for any interchange stations for the Ontario Line.
 

robmausser

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
3,574
Reaction score
5,220
One of the many reasons for closing Line 1 on weekends was because of the construction of the new station under the Eglinton Station for Line 5. However, there was also construction on the Line 1's Eglinton Station box itself. Unless changed from the original plans, they were planning to extend the station box on Line 1 northward.

201311_eglintonstn_appc.jpg

See link, dated November 17, 2013.

I haven't heard of any plans to shift the station boxes for any interchange stations for the Ontario Line.

I think this was canned, I dont think they are going this anymore. From what I recall, the platform is simply being extended a little bit, and thats it.

Someone correct me if im wrong.
 

Top