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Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

NoahB

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How many acedents do you expect to happen compared to what cuerntly happen at intersections? Another question is how may acednets happen where cars cross spadia or St. Clair on daily basies?
Consult my old post:
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From The Record: 35 collisions with trains since Ion began running in Waterloo Region
There have been collisions every month since the service started in June 2019, but the worst month for crashed was September 2019, with eight collisions. For the past six months, the rate has been just one crash a month.

The collisions usually happen when cars are travelling in the same direction as the Ion tracks, and a car turns right or left into the train’s path. Because the trains are generally moving pretty slow in those situations, collisions haven’t caused serious damage — the train is usually back in service within a couple of days, and repairs such as panel replacements typically cost less than $10,000.

In most cases, the crashes led to charges being laid against the driver of the car that struck the train.

Collisions are the single biggest cause of delays for LRT trains, said Peter Zinck, director of transit services at the Region of Waterloo.

Some changes have led to a reduction in crashes, Zinck said. Crashes and near-misses have gone down at Ottawa Street and Mill Street, now that traffic lights stop vehicles in all directions whenever the train is going through the intersection. The Region also banned right turns from King Street West onto Victoria Street, where cars and trucks cross over the LRT tracks.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Crosstown gets at least 1 car crash delay per month based on how it is going in Kitchener. TTC Streetcars have had 549 crashes in 2017, or 45 per month on average.

Kitchener uses crossing arms, alarms, and turning all lights to red in some sections. Toronto is not implementing any of that.
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Also from The Star:

Buses, which make up the vast majority of the TTC’s fleet of surface vehicles, accounted for 3,187 collisions last year, while streetcars were involved in 549, and Wheel-Trans vehicles in 265.



The TTC determined 1,135 of the 4,001 collisions, or more than one quarter, were “preventable,” a term the agency uses when it believes the transit employee operating the vehicle was at fault. That was 109 more preventable collisions than the year before.

The bottom line is there will be crashes, and there will be riders stuck in the cold/heat waiting for shuttles, and it will happen at least once a month and probably more.
 
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smallspy

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Consult my old post:
**************
From The Record: 35 collisions with trains since Ion began running in Waterloo Region








I wouldn't be surprised if the Crosstown gets at least 1 car crash delay per month based on how it is going in Kitchener. TTC Streetcars have had 549 crashes in 2017, or 45 per month on average.

Kitchener uses crossing arms, alarms, and turning all lights to red in some sections. Toronto is not implementing any of that.
****************

Also from The Star:



The bottom line is there will be crashes, and there will be riders stuck in the cold/heat waiting for shuttles, and it will happen at least once a month and probably more.

And how many LRTs existed in Kitchener-Waterloo prior to the opening of ION?

The fact of the matter is that center-of-the-road LRTs are not a foreign concept in Toronto. Will there be accidents? Of course. And there will be a rash of them for the first little while as everyone grows accustomed to the new arrangements on Eglinton. Just like there were on St. Clair, and on Spadina.

But is it something to get worked up over? I don't think so. People will figure things out.

Dan
 

NoahB

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And how many LRTs existed in Kitchener-Waterloo prior to the opening of ION?

The fact of the matter is that center-of-the-road LRTs are not a foreign concept in Toronto. Will there be accidents? Of course. And there will be a rash of them for the first little while as everyone grows accustomed to the new arrangements on Eglinton. Just like there were on St. Clair, and on Spadina.

But is it something to get worked up over? I don't think so. People will figure things out.

Dan

You just disregarded the second half of my post and focused on the first half.

Streecars have been in Toronto for over 150 years and accidents happen dozens of times per month. People here drive into 30-year-old streetcar tunnels with road bumps and flashing signs. People will continue to 'figure it out' by making wrong turns or drinking and driving. 549 streetcar crashes per year is not a small number.

Here is what the Star reported about streecar lanes:

Green noted pedestrians often use streetcar rights-of-way — the streetcar-only lanes that separate transit vehicles from car traffic on routes like Spadina Ave. and St. Clair Ave. — to cross midblock, which can be dangerous.

Nine of the 15 streetcar-related deaths, including two of the cyclist crashes, occurred on routes with rights-of-way.

Here is what they said about streetcar crashes vs busses:
In addition to fatal crashes, TTC data shows streetcars are more likely than buses to be in collisions of any kind, including with other vehicles. Last year streetcars experienced 7.61 collisions per 100,000 miles driven, more than double the rate for buses.
 
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skiier97

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Do we know what problems the Yonge & Eglinton station is running into? I've only be able to find vague information saying construction crews found defects with the TTC station but I'm kinda curious what the exact issue is.
 

Richard White

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Do we know what problems the Yonge & Eglinton station is running into? I've only be able to find vague information saying construction crews found defects with the TTC station but I'm kinda curious what the exact issue is.

Basically.. things were not where they were supposed to be. They found surprises along the way.
 

NoahB

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Do we know what problems the Yonge & Eglinton station is running into? I've only be able to find vague information saying construction crews found defects with the TTC station but I'm kinda curious what the exact issue is.

From The Star
But construction of the stop has been unexpectedly complex. It’s being built beneath the existing Eglinton subway station and, midway through work, Crosslinx discovered defects in structures installed in the 1950s during construction of the TTC stop. The defects had to be repaired, significantly delaying work on the new LRT station.

The work on the station had to be delayed until these structural defects were fixed. They are now fixed and the contractor is back to working on building the station. But of course with a significant delay.
 

Steve X

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Cyclist in the suburbs would have to be more skilled to be riding with higher speed traffic. I think there would be less problems there than the downtown streetcars. There will be less jaywalkers too.

As for traffic, I think they'll need to install those flashing train LED signs to make people more aware of the situation.
 

11th

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I think all LRT lines on wide road areas should be treated like subway lines by not interfering with traffic at all. This could be accomplished by just tunnelling or maneuvering about every major intersection with the rails. Simultaneously creating LRT stops and connections below or above those intersections. This was only created on the Science Center's Eglinton stop not the rest of them. Which I think will clog up traffic by giving the LRT the right away. They keep forgetting that this not a mid size city like Kitchener, London. But a city that's is or becoming a booming metropolis with all the future density being created on these avenues.
No worries. Now that they've created a right-of-way, they can spend a billion or so in the future to tear up the line and put in viaducts. While at that, they can spend perhaps half a billion to fix the Leslie/Eglinton intersection. (all figures are wild estimates)
 

Steve X

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No worries. Now that they've created a right-of-way, they can spend a billion or so in the future to tear up the line and put in viaducts. While at that, they can spend perhaps half a billion to fix the Leslie/Eglinton intersection. (all figures are wild estimates)
There is an advantage of having the LRT on the surface. It brings better development like the Golden Miles redevelopment and better access to the LRT. Having it on viaducts paints a more negative image of it. The line wasn't meant to be a major line from the airport to Scarborough. UPX+GO would be better if fare integration and better connection to the TTC are made.

As for the Leslie intersection, they can fix the issue without touching the track. They simply need to expand the roadway north of the tracks (which includes winding the bridge over the Don River and the underpass over CPR) to allow for a eastbound lane north of the tracks. That lane would be designated for making east to northbound turns and south to eastbound lanes. That lane would split before the Brentcliffe portal and merge after the west Don Mills portal. The 2 eastbound lanes south of the tracks would be through traffic only, no turns to or from Leslie. A pedestrian bridge would be built to service the platforms and cross the roadway. A simple drawing of what I meant. Safety islands would be installed at the intersection to make to appear as a regular intersection which would avoid the issues at Spadina/Queens Quays.

fix leslie.png
 

smallspy

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You just disregarded the second half of my post and focused on the first half.

Streecars have been in Toronto for over 150 years and accidents happen dozens of times per month. People here drive into 30-year-old streetcar tunnels with road bumps and flashing signs. People will continue to 'figure it out' by making wrong turns or drinking and driving. 549 streetcar crashes per year is not a small number.

Here is what the Star reported about streecar lanes:



Here is what they said about streetcar crashes vs busses:

So you're going to rebut my comment about taking things out of context by using comments taken out of context. Fair enough then.

Those articles give some pretty numbers, sure, but they also don't give a lot of other data that would be required to know if the numbers are relevant and useful, rather than just pretty. They use the term "involved' many times, but in how many of them were the streetcars at fault? Is the ratio or percentage similar to other cities with other streetcar operations? Is the ratio or percentage similar to our bus network by vehicle-miles or service hours, taking into account the size indifference in the two fleets? What are those measures when accounting for pedestrian traffic where they operate?

As for the number of people who drive into "30-year-old streetcar tunnels....", what is the exact number again, 31 occurrences? And again, how many of those were actually preventable (vehicle operator was simply confused versus intoxicated or was actively looking to drive into there)?

Sheer numbers can be helpful, but are way more useful if accompanied with some context.

Dan
 

11th

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There is an advantage of having the LRT on the surface. It brings better development like the Golden Miles redevelopment and better access to the LRT. Having it on viaducts paints a more negative image of it. The line wasn't meant to be a major line from the airport to Scarborough. UPX+GO would be better if fare integration and better connection to the TTC are made.

As for the Leslie intersection, they can fix the issue without touching the track. They simply need to expand the roadway north of the tracks (which includes winding the bridge over the Don River and the underpass over CPR) to allow for a eastbound lane north of the tracks. That lane would be designated for making east to northbound turns and south to eastbound lanes. That lane would split before the Brentcliffe portal and merge after the west Don Mills portal. The 2 eastbound lanes south of the tracks would be through traffic only, no turns to or from Leslie. A pedestrian bridge would be built to service the platforms and cross the roadway. A simple drawing of what I meant. Safety islands would be installed at the intersection to make to appear as a regular intersection which would avoid the issues at Spadina/Queens Quays.

View attachment 285793
It's a matter of different visions for the corridor. At least for me, this is called the crosstown and it should've been built as a rapid crosstown metro. Redevelopment of Golden Mile can still happen with 1km apart stations. It all comes down to proper zoning.

The fix you have here is similar to how the intersection was set up. The tracks/station is where the island used to be. I wonder why they didn't think of this during the design.
 

NoahB

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So you're going to rebut my comment about taking things out of context by using comments taken out of context. Fair enough then.

Those articles give some pretty numbers, sure, but they also don't give a lot of other data that would be required to know if the numbers are relevant and useful, rather than just pretty. They use the term "involved' many times, but in how many of them were the streetcars at fault? Is the ratio or percentage similar to other cities with other streetcar operations? Is the ratio or percentage similar to our bus network by vehicle-miles or service hours, taking into account the size indifference in the two fleets? What are those measures when accounting for pedestrian traffic where they operate?

As for the number of people who drive into "30-year-old streetcar tunnels....", what is the exact number again, 31 occurrences? And again, how many of those were actually preventable (vehicle operator was simply confused versus intoxicated or was actively looking to drive into there)?

Sheer numbers can be helpful, but are way more useful if accompanied with some context.

Dan

You disparage the numbers instead of actually addressing my comments. In the article, which is linked so you can go and read it, it does state how many are preventable crashes (defined as the TTC driver being at fault) compared to the total. But does that matter?

"Context" of who is at fault in a crash is meaningless if you are stuck outside in the cold waiting for a train that never arrives.

The tunnel is just an example of how drivers can be unpredictable and on how the very old tunnel on a line that opened 30 years ago still gets silly problems like driving into it.

The ION example is for a system that has more safety and priority features built into it still getting crashes. (and deaths) The crosstown will not have flashing lights, crossing arms, nor audible alarms which ION has.

And in your last comment, you are asking for a scholarly analysis of TTC crashes which I cant provide. And then using that as an excuse to disregard my whole argument. I can only provide the data I can find. Which are all linked above.

I suggest reading the article. Half of your questions are answered there.
 

ARG1

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There is an advantage of having the LRT on the surface. It brings better development like the Golden Miles redevelopment and better access to the LRT. Having it on viaducts paints a more negative image of it.
Let me debunk this entire argument with 1 word: Vancouver.

Somehow, despite having the entire rapid transit system built around the idea of trains running everywhere on elevated viaducts, somehow it doesn't hinder development, in fact I'd argue that out of downtown development is better than anywhere in Toronto other than maybe North York Centre. This is despite the fact that they're built around viaducts that in your words "paints a more negative image of it", in other words, real world examples don't back up your claims of elevated lines.
 

H4F33Z

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There is an advantage of having the LRT on the surface. It brings better development like the Golden Miles redevelopment and better access to the LRT. Having it on viaducts paints a more negative image of it. The line wasn't meant to be a major line from the airport to Scarborough. UPX+GO would be better if fare integration and better connection to the TTC are made.

As for the Leslie intersection, they can fix the issue without touching the track. They simply need to expand the roadway north of the tracks (which includes winding the bridge over the Don River and the underpass over CPR) to allow for a eastbound lane north of the tracks. That lane would be designated for making east to northbound turns and south to eastbound lanes. That lane would split before the Brentcliffe portal and merge after the west Don Mills portal. The 2 eastbound lanes south of the tracks would be through traffic only, no turns to or from Leslie. A pedestrian bridge would be built to service the platforms and cross the roadway. A simple drawing of what I meant. Safety islands would be installed at the intersection to make to appear as a regular intersection which would avoid the issues at Spadina/Queens Quays.

View attachment 285793
That's a quite interesting design. It's sorta like a diverging diamond interchange? I'm just wondering how the vehicles coming from Southbound to Eastbound, will get back on the proper side. The LRT Tracks are on the surface for a while east of Leslie, (800 metres) and only go underground just before Don Mills. All this work seems like a complete hassle.

I'd much rather have the LRT start rising at the Brentcliffe Portal, then elevated station just west of Leslie (or remove entirely) and elevate over the current intersection, then start descending to clear under the CPR overpass, the grade from Leslie St to CPR Bridge would be around 3% The CPR bridge would still need to be rehabed. And then the LRT would run on a guideway guarded from traffic until it dips to Science Centre Station. This way, the LRT does not have to deal with traffic lights, but can still run at street level.

1606682763119.png
 

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