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Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

TossYourJacket

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At this point, I expect Crosslinx to deliver something as absolutely broken as RTG did in Ottawa. All while suing the province to rip off taxpayers as much as possible. What a total mess this project has become. I dread what will happen if Metrolinx continues to try and use these kind of agreements for projects like the Ontario Line.
 

jordanmkasla2009

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Generally speaking trains need to go slower through switches. Having less switches allows a faster overall speed.
That may be true for the TTC's streetcar network switches due to some unique aspects to the surface network and that they are embedded, but that is not true for the majority of rail switches. A non-embedded switch, that uses standard profile rail, that is in "normal" position can be traversed at full line speed. Only when the switch is in "reverse" position is there a need to reduce speed. In the UK, for example, High Speed 1 has track switches that are traversed at 225-300 km/h when set in the "normal" or straight through position.
 

Steve X

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Yikes, theres no way this lawsuit holds up in court right? If CTS claims the governments refusal to declare an "emergency" for contract terms hurts their work progress, Metrolinx can just say you guys never completed your tasks on time. Covid did nothing to hurt you
Since we don't know the reason for the delay is cause by Crosslinx unable to build the project on time or ML keep changing their plans making it very difficult to stay on time, we can't just conclude one party is at fault.
 

drum118

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rbt

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I dread what will happen if Metrolinx continues to try and use these kind of agreements for projects like the Ontario Line.
Metrolinx wants to continue with this type of agreement. Absolutely nobody is willing to make a bid on one though; this delayed GO Expansion and Union Station Expansion tenders. Ontario Line got the same type of response.

It's not an Ontario problem though, just a Metrolinx problem. Infrastructure Ontario continues to find numerous willing contractors for medical P3s (Hospitals, etc.).
 

smallspy

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Cost is a big reason, speed and reliability is another.

Generally speaking trains need to go slower through switches. Having less switches allows a faster overall speed.

Switches can fail. Whether it won't move or has a broken rail, all of these add to the mess that is keeping trains on time.
Cost is the biggest reason. It costs money to build them (especially in tunnels), and it costs money to maintain them.

Speed? Not a factor at all. Trains are able to operate at full speed over them in the straight leg of them (and there are turnouts that have been built that allow for speeds in excess of 200km/h on the diverging). (Yes, there may be rules regarding the speeds allowed over they, but those are generally not due to physical restrictions.)

Failure? Absolutely. Not just of the turnout itself, but also of the signal system that ties in with it.

Thus, all these things must be balanced against the increase in flexibility they allow. For instance, the TTC's standard is about every 4km of subway line.

Dan
 

robmausser

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Metrolinx wants to continue with this type of agreement. Absolutely nobody is willing to make a bid on one though; this delayed GO Expansion and Union Station Expansion tenders. Ontario Line got the same type of response.

It's not an Ontario problem though, just a Metrolinx problem. Infrastructure Ontario continues to find numerous willing contractors for medical P3s (Hospitals, etc.).
I think its a transit problem.

Building a hospital on a plot of land is somewhat straightforward.

Building a transit line is much much more complex and riskier, and deals with many more issues (like the problems at Eglinton station)

I think the private sector is realizing that building transit is not profitable for them and not worth the risk.
 

TheTigerMaster

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At this point, I expect Crosslinx to deliver something as absolutely broken as RTG did in Ottawa. All while suing the province to rip off taxpayers as much as possible. What a total mess this project has become. I dread what will happen if Metrolinx continues to try and use these kind of agreements for projects like the Ontario Line.
RTG is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin

Crosslinx is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin and Aecon

So, yea, I'm not expecting the delivered product to be high quality, if the Ottawa LRT is any indication of what we can expect
 
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TheTigerMaster

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I think its a transit problem.

Building a hospital on a plot of land is somewhat straightforward.

Building a transit line is much much more complex and riskier, and deals with many more issues (like the problems at Eglinton station)
I've heard the term vertical construction vs horizontal construction to describe what you're talking about

Horizontal construction (highways, transit lines) are spread across dozens or hundreds of sites, so there are a lot more site-specific things that can go wrong.

Vertical construction (buildings, towers, etc...) are located at a single spot, which reduces the amount of things that can go wrong.


I think the private sector is realizing that building transit is not profitable for them and not worth the risk.
If this were the case, wouldn't we see similar troubles in other jurisdictions?
 

crs1026

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^There’s lots of literature demonstrating that large infrastructure projects are risky. Only a tiny minority come in on time and budget.

The problem is the political pressure that governments face when projects hit bumps. A lot of the motivation behind P3 is so that in theory, politicians and bureaucrats can use P3 to insulate themselves from risk. “The contract is air tight, the contractor has to deliver on time and on budget or they don’t get paid” kind of thing. In theory, it’s a silver bullet for the knee jerk “heads must roll” rabble that emerge whenever something goes wrong. Frankly I partly blame the media who get far more sales from reporting the bumps as major scandals than by trying to sort out the fine points. (How many of us remember how much of the TYSSE overruns and delay came from which problem?)

Unlike TYSSE or, just to pick an example, the Florence LRT network or the Oslo airport train, or the Seattle road tunnel, Crosstown has never faced a major shutdown-and-regroup event. It is proceeding pretty well. Its painful impact on the surface community was pretty predictable, although the pols did little to set expectations. I don’t think one can paint it as a project fiasco. But.... lawyers..... and a political organization (ML) that puts a high priority on positioning themselves as a lily-white fountain of unending good news, truth being dispensible.

I’m not advocating low standards, but “On time and on budget” is a claim that can seldom be achieved. If Crosstown turns out well, it won’t have been as big a wait as some might claim. What has been missing all along is transparency.

- Paul
 

drum118

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Eglinton Crosstown LRT October 2020
Join us at our fall virtual open houses!

You're invited to our upcoming virtual open houses! Please join us online to learn about the progress of the future Eglinton Crosstown stations and stops in your neighbourhood. You can ask questions by posting them on the website. The website will go live for the first open house at 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday, October 14.

Open HouseDateTimeLocation

Central West
(Fairbank Station – Eglinton Station)
Wednesday
October 14, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

Central
(Chaplin Station – Leaside Station)
Wednesday
October 21, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

Central East
(Eglinton Station to Science Centre Station)
Wednesday
October 28, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

West
(Eglinton Maintenance and Storage Facility to Caledonia Station)
Wednesday
November 4, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

East
(Science Centre Station to Kennedy Station)
Tuesday
November 10, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage
 

Streety McCarface

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I'd love to take a peek at Crosslinx's finances, if only to get an understanding of what similar projects might cost in the future. Are they in the red hundreds of millions? Billions? Did the initial $5.4 Billion estimation from 2011ish anticipate the large escalations in the price of construction we've seen in Toronto over the years?
It's hundreds of millions. This is to be expected especially given Covid.
 

cplchanb

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It's hundreds of millions. This is to be expected especially given Covid.
I suspect that the bidders who low balled ie crosslinx, bid on incomplete drawings and did not factor much for extras. They surprise everyone with an amazing number, but as shown, once changes are needed the dollars just keep on piling up.
Source: I work in the buildng construction consultant industry
 

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