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Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

sixrings

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Hey you're an e l i t e who's getting underground service /s
Maybe but my wife's work is at Eglinton and Kipling and we were perfectly content with an at grade lrt. The one plus of Scarborough deserving grade seperated lines is that Doug said if they're getting grade separated lines then etobicoke is getting grade separated lines too!
 

Rainforest

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You're making it seem more inconsequential than it is. I'll put it more simply, let's say if an LRV approached an intersection where there was no signal priority activated. If a light was about to change to red and the LRV was just a couple dozen metres out, the light would change to red and the LRV would be forced to hold for the next green signal. Multiply that over the widely spaced traffic lights, that will get less widely spaced out as the Golden Mile stretch becomes more urbanized, and that results in longer travel times than what you stated above.

And that's just one instance, because the lack of signal priority comes into play in more scenarios than what I illustrated above.
First of all, hitting each and every intersection just when it turns red will be a very rare misfortune. Let' say for simplicity that the chance of hitting red at each intersection is 1 in 2. Then the chance of hitting 6 reds in a row will be 1 in 64, or less than 2%.

Furthermore, fully grade separated does not equate a completely sterile environment. Signal problems, crew changes, alighting/boarding delays, fire at the track level (or detectors giving alerts even if there is no actual fire); all sort of things happen and cause delays unrelated to surface traffic signals.

If the subways typically clock ~32 kph travel speed, and buses clock ~18 kph, then the estimate of ~23 kph for surface level dedicated-lane LRTs is pretty reasonable. Even in the denser environment, LRTs will have larger stop intervals than buses, and will not be blocked by general traffic while running between the traffic lights. It would be strange if those two factors didn't give LRTs any speed advantage over buses.

In fact, I suspect that the LRT speed through the Golden Mile will be higher initially, perhaps 25-26 kph, and then will drop to ~23 kph as more traffic lights are added.

In summary: yes it is a factor, street-median will be slower than tunnel or guideway, but this is not a factor that totally alters the quality of service. Most of the riders will hardly notice, they will just pad their travel plans by 5-6 min compared to what they could have if the line had a fully exclusive route for its whole length.
 

Shining Tree

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The difference in stop spacing is very consequential. Spadina and St Clair have ~ 200 m between the stops, while Eglinton East will have 500-600 m.



That won't be a major factor though. The traffic lights are very widely spaced along that stretch of Eglinton. Even if the LRT gets no priority at all, the extra travel time will be small.

The stretch in question, Laird to Kennedy, is about 9 km long. Surface LRT running at 23 kph, can cover it in (9*60)/23 = 23 min. At the subway speed of 32 kph, it would be (9*60)/32 = 17 min. The extra running time is about 6 min each way.

Of course, it would be better to extend the exclusive section from Laird to Don Mills. Not so much for speed, more for the capacity management (allowing more frequent service all the way to Don Mills interchange, rather than to low-volume Laird stop).
Planners of Transit City and Eglinton LRT had no concept of building a network and made no provisions for a Relief Line.
It was to scatter $15B to various areas priority neighborhoods to make marginal improvements to their commutes, rather than choosing a solution or two that is more expensive, but makes drastic improvements to the largest number of people.
 

smallspy

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Ask residents who live along Spadina, Lake Shore Blvd West, and St.Clair for starters what's wrong with streetcar service. They'll give you a nice list of issues.
As someone who used to live on St. Clair West, while the streetcar service isn't (or wasn't) perfect, it was a hell of a sight better than the replacement bus service.

Dan
 

robmausser

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Planners of Transit City and Eglinton LRT had no concept of building a network and made no provisions for a Relief Line.
It was to scatter $15B to various areas priority neighborhoods to make marginal improvements to their commutes, rather than choosing a solution or two that is more expensive, but makes drastic improvements to the largest number of people.
Transit City was literally just looking at the busiest bus routes and saying "well lets upgrade them to LRT" with no regard for the bigger picture of transit infrastructure and how the entire system needs to work together as a cohesive whole. When you upgrade a line it places different demands on the rest of the system that need to be taken into account.
 

W. K. Lis

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The dwell time at the stops should be also considered. Having passengers deboarding and then boarding would like increase at busy intersections. If calculated correctly, they can extend or shorten the dwell time to allow the next traffic signals to change by the time the trains get before the next intersection. Until the next idiot decides to hold the door to get on.
 

junctionist

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Why did they go with such small shelters? It seems like the St. Clair and Spadina streetcar lines have shelters that cover more of the platforms. One would think that there would be more people using the LRT platforms than the streetcar lines since it's supposed to be higher-order transit and hence more need for shelter.
 

Amare

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First of all, hitting each and every intersection just when it turns red will be a very rare misfortune. Let' say for simplicity that the chance of hitting red at each intersection is 1 in 2. Then the chance of hitting 6 reds in a row will be 1 in 64, or less than 2%.

Furthermore, fully grade separated does not equate a completely sterile environment. Signal problems, crew changes, alighting/boarding delays, fire at the track level (or detectors giving alerts even if there is no actual fire); all sort of things happen and cause delays unrelated to surface traffic signals.

If the subways typically clock ~32 kph travel speed, and buses clock ~18 kph, then the estimate of ~23 kph for surface level dedicated-lane LRTs is pretty reasonable. Even in the denser environment, LRTs will have larger stop intervals than buses, and will not be blocked by general traffic while running between the traffic lights. It would be strange if those two factors didn't give LRTs any speed advantage over buses.

In fact, I suspect that the LRT speed through the Golden Mile will be higher initially, perhaps 25-26 kph, and then will drop to ~23 kph as more traffic lights are added.

In summary: yes it is a factor, street-median will be slower than tunnel or guideway, but this is not a factor that totally alters the quality of service. Most of the riders will hardly notice, they will just pad their travel plans by 5-6 min compared to what they could have if the line had a fully exclusive route for its whole length.
Well i'm not here to try and convince you otherwise because clearly you're entitled to your own opinion.

The only point i'm making is that the Crosstown surface portion would benefit immensely from signal priority activated. The city is refusing to allow for it to happen for whatever stupid reason, and as a result travel times will be needlessly longer compared to if signal priority was activated.

As someone who used to live on St. Clair West, while the streetcar service isn't (or wasn't) perfect, it was a hell of a sight better than the replacement bus service.

Dan
In the case of St.Clair, the streetcar service is better than replacement bus service that I can agree on. However, there are still quite a few operational issues that continue to hamper the service to date. The largest of which: lack of active signal priority.
 

kali

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What kind of parking ratios are planned for the Golden Mile developments? Would be disappointing if it's higher than 0.5.
 

TheTigerMaster

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That won't be a major factor though. The traffic lights are very widely spaced along that stretch of Eglinton. Even if the LRT gets no priority at all, the extra travel time will be small.

The stretch in question, Laird to Kennedy, is about 9 km long. Surface LRT running at 23 kph, can cover it in (9*60)/23 = 23 min. At the subway speed of 32 kph, it would be (9*60)/32 = 17 min. The extra running time is about 6 min each way.

Of course, it would be better to extend the exclusive section from Laird to Don Mills. Not so much for speed, more for the capacity management (allowing more frequent service all the way to Don Mills interchange, rather than to low-volume Laird stop).
You know, actually driving the length of the surface section, I walked away (drove away??) with the impression that the number of intersections really isn't going to be as big of an issue as many of us had imagined. It all might sound a bit irrational, but seeing it in person, a big part of me was definitely thinking "wow, I thought there'd be a lot more intersections than this". I was imagining it would more resemble Spadina or St Clair, but this is clearly something very different. Sometimes its hard to get a feel for these things until you actually see it coming together

Then when you consider that at each intersection, the vehicles travelling east/west on Eglinton will get the biggest chunk of the green time, I don't think the trams actually waiting at red lights is going to be as big an issue as we might have thought. I don't think people will complain too much about having to wait at two or three red lights during a trip - it's not that big a deal

Actually what concerns me way more than the number of intersections, is the number of stops along the surface portion, thru the golden mile in particular. I still wish Hakimi Lebovic (only 350 m from Warden) wasn't there, however I can understand the rational given that stop is in the centre of some major shopping complexes and community destinations. Removing it would mean that people would have anywhere from another 350 metres to another 500 metres to access the Walmart, supermarket and the other major retailers and destinations in the shopping complex.
 

TheTigerMaster

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First of all, hitting each and every intersection just when it turns red will be a very rare misfortune. Let' say for simplicity that the chance of hitting red at each intersection is 1 in 2. Then the chance of hitting 6 reds in a row will be 1 in 64, or less than 2%.
Actually running some numbers, between Victoria Park and Kennedy Station there are six lights. Let's say the probability of hitting a red at any given intersection when travelling along Eglinton is 40%. That means that the probability of hitting three or fewer reds is around 82.5 percent. The probability of two or fewer reds is 54.5 percent. And in practice, the impact of the red lights is mitigated, because much of the time at a red is spent loading/unloading passengers.
 

W. K. Lis

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From link.



Two brainstorming ideas. Reports were that Eglinton Station is behind the rest and will delay the opening of Line 5.

Originally thought that Cedarvale Station could be used as the eastern terminal for Line 5 until the Eglinton Station is ready. However, Avenue Station could be used as the eastern terminal instead, but have the buses continue to shuttle service between Eglinton Station and Cedarvale Station as an earlier opening. Cedarvale Station would be used as a transfer station with Line 1.

Don't know how far along the trackwork would be, but if usable couldn't the trains just bypass Eglinton Station (no stopping). Then we can still use Cedarvale Station as the only transfer station with Line 1, but it would provide service to eastern riders.
 

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