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Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

Streety McCarface

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If because of the pandemic more people will be working from home and less people are converting maybe we can all save some money and time and transfer this plan to Transit City.
No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.
 

sixrings

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No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.
That's true. Metrolinx is pure evil. As incompetent as they are they probably invented covid-19 just to not build a subway to Scarborough. Bastards.
 

Aplus23

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No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.

Good thing your not in charge of anything related to transit. Why would a bus be faster than a train even with no signal priority. The bus has to stop at the same red light as well. We need to get this Rapid priority out of our heads. It's up to the individual to make it to their destination on time. Leave your location with ample amount of time to make it to your destination. Your employer doesn't give a crap about transit delays or traffic delays. Transit is supposed to help the masses get from one point or another safely and efficiently.

I'll take transit city with poor signaling over subways that don't help the masses.
 

Streety McCarface

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Good thing your not in charge of anything related to transit. Why would a bus be faster than a train even with no signal priority. The bus has to stop at the same red light as well. We need to get this Rapid priority out of our heads. It's up to the individual to make it to their destination on time. Leave your location with ample amount of time to make it to your destination. Your employer doesn't give a crap about transit delays or traffic delays. Transit is supposed to help the masses get from one point or another safely and efficiently.

I'll take transit city with poor signaling over subways that don't help the masses.
3 things — Acceleration, stopping time, and Stop requirements. Stop placement will also likely play a role.

Buses accelerate faster than LRVs, and are at stops for about half the time as a typical train. Based on my experience with the iON, stopped time for an LRV is 17-20 seconds, compared to a bus' 7-12. This is mainly due to door speeds but also due to passenger loading characteristics.

Not all buses have to wait for left turns. Modern signaling often shortens the left turn cycle or eliminates it when traffic isn't high enough to justify cycling through it, but it generally only occurs in one direction.

If you want people to use transit, it has to be fast, frequent, and reliable. Surface LRT in the way the city is building it only partially solves the reliability aspect (in the event of a blockage/derailment, the bus is more reliable). It reduces the frequency and probably won't increase the train speed. Look at the 509 before and after the redoing of Queen's Quay — trip times increased by like 10%, and that's downtown. You could make the argument that stop spacing didn't change, but the 905 express only stopped at the same stops as the crosstown for those that live near the bus stops. For those that will have to walk an additional half kilometer to their stop, that adds 10 minutes to their commute, and it's not made up while taking the LRT (on the on-street section).

Do the vast majority of people choose to take the 506 over Line 2? No...why not? Because Line 2 is twice as fast as the 506. I'm not saying we should get rid of the 506 (in fact I think there's a fair case for an extension in the west). Speed is that much more important in the suburbs because the alternative is driving. If you can't make transit faster than driving, then most people will just drive. The TTC isn't particularly cheap anyways. I want LRT to succeed in this city, but if the city keeps dragging its feet on actually making it work, then you're going to doom the technology. If they want on-street LRT, it needs signal priority.

Subways that don't help the masses?
A DRL Short (~300K) would help more people than all of transit city less Eglinton (Finch (50K), Sheppard (30K), Eglinton East (30K), Scarborough Malvern (60K), Jane (30K), Waterfront (30K), Don Mills (40K)) combined, and the former would be cheaper.

Yonge north would help > 150K people (probably more), and cost the same as Jane, Eglinton East, Sheppard, and Don Mills combined (~130K PPD).

The TYSSE cost 3.2 billion, helps at least 100K people, and cost the same as Sheppard, Eglintonton East, and Don Mills, and that line was considered wasteful.

And if you want to rule out all subway extensions, then invest that 8 billion dollars in expanding the streetcar and bus fleets, fixing & resignaling the subways, adding cars to Line 1 and replacing the T1s, make all stations accessible, improving bus and streetcar frequencies throughout the system, and other SOGR measures. Investing money in a technology that is barely improving things doesn't help our SOGR backlog.

That's true. Metrolinx is pure evil. As incompetent as they are they probably invented covid-19 just to not build a subway to Scarborough. Bastards.

You don't think Metrolinx wasn't politically motivated to decrease the success of the surface portion of the crosstown? It sure would make their plans for the SSE, EWLRT, and Ontario line look good by comparison.
 

sixrings

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3 things — Acceleration, stopping time, and Stop requirements. Stop placement will also likely play a role.

Buses accelerate faster than LRVs, and are at stops for about half the time as a typical train. Based on my experience with the iON, stopped time for an LRV is 17-20 seconds, compared to a bus' 7-12. This is mainly due to door speeds but also due to passenger loading characteristics.

Not all buses have to wait for left turns. Modern signaling often shortens the left turn cycle or eliminates it when traffic isn't high enough to justify cycling through it, but it generally only occurs in one direction.

If you want people to use transit, it has to be fast, frequent, and reliable. Surface LRT in the way the city is building it only partially solves the reliability aspect (in the event of a blockage/derailment, the bus is more reliable). It reduces the frequency and probably won't increase the train speed. Look at the 509 before and after the redoing of Queen's Quay — trip times increased by like 10%, and that's downtown. You could make the argument that stop spacing didn't change, but the 905 express only stopped at the same stops as the crosstown for those that live near the bus stops. For those that will have to walk an additional half kilometer to their stop, that adds 10 minutes to their commute, and it's not made up while taking the LRT (on the on-street section).

Do the vast majority of people choose to take the 506 over Line 2? No...why not? Because Line 2 is twice as fast as the 506. I'm not saying we should get rid of the 506 (in fact I think there's a fair case for an extension in the west). Speed is that much more important in the suburbs because the alternative is driving. If you can't make transit faster than driving, then most people will just drive. The TTC isn't particularly cheap anyways. I want LRT to succeed in this city, but if the city keeps dragging its feet on actually making it work, then you're going to doom the technology. If they want on-street LRT, it needs signal priority.

Subways that don't help the masses?
A DRL Short (~300K) would help more people than all of transit city less Eglinton (Finch (50K), Sheppard (30K), Eglinton East (30K), Scarborough Malvern (60K), Jane (30K), Waterfront (30K), Don Mills (40K)) combined, and the former would be cheaper.

Yonge north would help > 150K people (probably more), and cost the same as Jane, Eglinton East, Sheppard, and Don Mills combined (~130K PPD).

The TYSSE cost 3.2 billion, helps at least 100K people, and cost the same as Sheppard, Eglintonton East, and Don Mills, and that line was considered wasteful.

And if you want to rule out all subway extensions, then invest that 8 billion dollars in expanding the streetcar and bus fleets, fixing & resignaling the subways, adding cars to Line 1 and replacing the T1s, make all stations accessible, improving bus and streetcar frequencies throughout the system, and other SOGR measures. Investing money in a technology that is barely improving things doesn't help our SOGR backlog.



You don't think Metrolinx wasn't politically motivated to decrease the success of the surface portion of the crosstown? It sure would make their plans for the SSE, EWLRT, and Ontario line look good by comparison.
First of all I am not anti subway. However I am pro LRT. It seems if you are pro LRT then you are labeled anti subway. The DRL should be a subway. That said I am not for these suburban subway extensions. And that isn't because of spite or because I would use the DRL but rather because of numbers. AS you said the DRL will move quite a few people. On the other hand we could extend the Sheppard subway a short distance or build a complete Sheppard LRT. Im in favour of the LRT. Moving people around the suburbs is a tricky thing. I grew up near finch in Scarborough and loved the finch express. The finch express had to travel in mixed traffic though. A LRT would be in its own lane making it more reliable, smoother, and could be scheduled frequently based on its reliability. Also I dont think comparing the LRT lines as TC intended to the 506 is at all fair. One the 506 has far more lights in its way so it would have to stop far more frequently. Plus the stop spacing of the TC lines was much further apart.. Sure it isn't as fast as a subway and definitely not as fast as a car but the TC LRT lines would be significantly faster than the current busses it would replace and the 506 you have compared it to. An LRT network would mean that there are more lines increasing the speed of transit trips overall. Besides most of the trips in scarborough are within scarborough. Subway advocates will say that is because there isnt a subway which may be true but we simply do not know. Anyways a network is important to myself as a rider.
 
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salsa

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Some of the images in the video are quite dated. With Science Centre for example, see the difference between my update from last weekend vs Metrolinx:


1588261578219.png



1588261309636.png


A different angle:
1588261468239.png
 

NoahB

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First of all I am not anti subway. However I am pro LRT. It seems if you are pro LRT then you are labeled anti subway. The DRL should be a subway. That said I am not for these suburban subway extensions. And that isn't because of spite or because I would use the DRL but rather because of numbers. AS you said the DRL will move quite a few people. On the other hand we could extend the Sheppard subway a short distance or build a complete Sheppard LRT. Im in favour of the LRT. Moving people around the suburbs is a tricky thing. I grew up near finch in Scarborough and loved the finch express. The finch express had to travel in mixed traffic though. A LRT would be in its own lane making it more reliable, smoother, and could be scheduled frequently based on its reliability. Also I dont think comparing the LRT lines as TC intended to the 506 is at all fair. One the 506 has far more lights in its way so it would have to stop far more frequently. Plus the stop spacing of the TC lines was much further apart.. Sure it isn't as fast as a subway and definitely not as fast as a car but the TC LRT lines would be significantly faster than the current busses it would replace and the 506 you have compared it to. An LRT network would mean that there are more lines increasing the speed of transit trips overall. Besides most of the trips in scarborough are within scarborough. Subway advocates will say that is because there isnt a subway which may be true but we simply do not know. Anyways a network is important to myself as a rider.

I don't think you are being labeled anti-subway. But can you really be pro-LRTs when you're ok with the LRTs getting gimped by things like signal priority? A Crosstown without signal priority will be slower than it could (I'd even say "should") be. Toronto is building the Crosstown's at-grade section as it would a streetcar, and that's insane in my opinion. Add signal priority and crossing gates and this would not be a problem. It would get comparable speed to a regular subway. LRTs can be as high capacity as a subway.

Look at how subway like the Edmonton LRT (50km/h through intersections, and a max frequency of 2.5min and look at the Ottawa LRT(total grade separation, possibility for future automation, teething problems notwithstanding) These are proper high capacity LRTs.
We are spending more for less only to piss car drivers a little less. and that's just stupid.

The Crosstown as it stands will not come close to these two examples even though half of it is practically a European style subway. (With the other half being practically a Toronto Streetcar)
 
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Streety McCarface

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at
First of all I am not anti subway. However I am pro LRT. It seems if you are pro LRT then you are labeled anti subway. The DRL should be a subway. That said I am not for these suburban subway extensions. And that isn't because of spite or because I would use the DRL but rather because of numbers. AS you said the DRL will move quite a few people. On the other hand we could extend the Sheppard subway a short distance or build a complete Sheppard LRT. Im in favour of the LRT. Moving people around the suburbs is a tricky thing. I grew up near finch in Scarborough and loved the finch express. The finch express had to travel in mixed traffic though. A LRT would be in its own lane making it more reliable, smoother, and could be scheduled frequently based on its reliability. Also I dont think comparing the LRT lines as TC intended to the 506 is at all fair. One the 506 has far more lights in its way so it would have to stop far more frequently. Plus the stop spacing of the TC lines was much further apart.. Sure it isn't as fast as a subway and definitely not as fast as a car but the TC LRT lines would be significantly faster than the current busses it would replace and the 506 you have compared it to. An LRT network would mean that there are more lines increasing the speed of transit trips overall. Besides most of the trips in scarborough are within scarborough. Subway advocates will say that is because there isnt a subway which may be true but we simply do not know. Anyways a network is important to myself as a rider.
You're reacting to a completely different response. I never labelled you as anti-subway, or not pro-LRT. My response to you was with regard to Metrolinx meddling.

I'm very pro-lrt, my name is "streety mccarface" for god's sake. I'm making the argument that in the way the city/Metrolinx is building LRT, money would be better spent elsewhere because the promised benefits are not there. The examples I listed were the RL, YNSE, TYSSE for subways, and SOGR for everything else. That part is my opinion and wasn't even a response to you.

When did I mention the sheppard subway? I said that money would be better spent on the RL and SOGR, and made the argument for the YNSE and TYSSE. I didn't mention the SSE, EWLRT, or any extension to Sheppard.

I made the point earlier that the street running LRT the city is building isn't worth it because there's no signal priority. Surface LRT commute times aren't any better than the bus. The one benefit is reliability, but that's assuming issues with the line (vehicle collisions, passenger delays, and derailments for example) aren't occurring.

The 506/Line 2 comparison is definitely unfair, but it's the closest comparison we have. The point was that people will almost always choose the faster commute (some will choose the least stressful/most cost effective), and if the faster commute is to drive, then that's what they'll choose. If the surface section of the Crosstown has speeds of 15-18 km/h (a liberal guess), then that isn't too far off the average speed of the bus (15 km/h) or even a downtown streetcar (10 km/h).
 

sixrings

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I'm just frustrated if we would have funded TC when we should have it would have been all done and the only thing we would have had to worry about is the DRL. Instead here comes another chopping opportunity.

For the pro subway people who say LRT fans are people without vision and are keeping the city back. How does running busses everywhere give off the impression of a city with vision. We did right by building the legacy network downtown. Why are we so stubborn to ignore building an improved version uptown?

And yes. Build the damn DRL with a subway.
 

pman

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I hope Metrolinx learns from Sydney’s less than optimal experience with its new LRT. Wait, I hear you object, a Toronto government agency learn from somewhere else? OK, point taken. And sure, one of the reasons Sydneysiders aren’t exactly thrilled is TNSW’s threat to do away with some of the Eastern Suburbs’ popular and convenient express buses in favour of local buses feeding commuters to the LRT. But screwing up transit signal priority seems to have been a big factor in Sydney’s somewhat botched launch, and my completely unscientific survey found people who use it say it’s slow as molasses. It would be nice in some fantasy Toronto if ML and the City would take note and maybe get Eglinton signal priority not totally wrong.


 

drum118

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I'm just frustrated if we would have funded TC when we should have it would have been all done and the only thing we would have had to worry about is the DRL. Instead here comes another chopping opportunity.

For the pro subway people who say LRT fans are people without vision and are keeping the city back. How does running busses everywhere give off the impression of a city with vision. We did right by building the legacy network downtown. Why are we so stubborn to ignore building an improved version uptown?

And yes. Build the damn DRL with a subway.
You are forgetting one "BIG" thing with TC and that is where are the cars for it as well when would TTC begin replacing the old fleet, not like it is today??

If the Sheppard Line was to be up and running by 2014 as plan, there would been no cars for it then. Same for the SRT conversion to LRT that got pushed back from 2015 to 2018 due to the Pam Am Games. That allow the opening for the useless subway extension.

Again, this is what you get when you put all your eggs in one basket and go with one supplier. Where would this line be if Metrolinx hadn't gone to a 2nd supplier even though they screw this up from day one???

Regardless of the COVID-19 mess and a drop in ridership over the coming years, still need to build the DRL/Ontario Line to Steeles due to the amount of new development on Yonge St and within a 1,200 meters of Yonge and it must be a subway. Again, this will change the current travel pattern and become a faster way to get around this city.

The sooner this line is up and running, It will change how people travel today and more so when both ends see extensions.

As much people cry for grade separation, they should check out both Phoenix and Minneapolis lines to see how they work like the Crosstown will on the surface. Minneapolis Green Line is a good example what the Crosstown Line will be come opening day for the surface section.

Metrolinx, TTC, Politicians and Council fail to understand that you move from one mold to another as ridership demands call for it like bus = BRT = LRT = Subway, not the bus = subway that takes place today. In some cases, you are force to jump molds due to road/route condition like the Crosstown Line. The Crosstown had to be an LRT underground as there wasn't any room on the surface for an BRT/LRT as the road width was too narrow.

It has been head scratching to see some cities to jump molds when ridership doesn't support it after 10 years of service or even before it was built.

Signal priority is a "MUST" and using LRT signals, other wise useless travel time. Rode ION LRT on Monday and it still a pain to ride due to crossing gates time and slow speed in a true ROW. King St operates a lot better than ION in many places that should be the opposite.
 
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drum118

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From quick looking at the Caledonia Station on Wed, the Friday concrete pour will be for the slopping section to the concourse level and not all of the form work in place. Could be a 2 day pour for the amount of area to be form and pour on different weeks.

Lot of work taking place at Mount Dennis and Keeledale, with the road decking remove partly for the eastbound lanes to allow back filling.
 

Steve X

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I saw them lifting rails and probably installing them west of Leslie this afternoon. There were another crew around Pharmacy working on those signals.
 

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