salsa
Senior Member
Took some photos yesterday around Don Mills & Eglinton
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Rainforest
Senior Member
Good transit priority is certainly desirable. However, the lack of such priority is a relatively minor shortcoming that won't substantially undermine the utilty of the Crosstown service.
It's not like the Yonge subway always runs uninterrupted. Doesn't wait for the crossing traffic, obviously, but is still affected by signal problems etc, and gets delayed occasionally.
Plus, once the Crosstown rails are in place, improving the transit priority can be done in the near future and that won't involve any major capital expenses.
crs1026
Senior Member
I would say the opposite, on two grounds.
One is that there is an objective, quantitative reduction in trip time possible with transit priority, and it's a matter of minutes, not seconds on a cross town trip. We are investing billions in a line but nailing its feet to the floor by not making it as marketable and useful as possible. I don't have an actual statistic to cite, but I am confident that an ambling, stoplight pausing LRT will appear to the public as much closer to a traditional streetcar than a high quality higher order transit option. This is not "minor" in terms of marketability or modal share... or ridership and revenue.
The bigger issue is the adamant refusal of Toronto's Transportation Department to embrace transit priority at all, anywhere, in the city. It may be true that nothing at a technology level prevents this function from being retrofitted to Crosstown. It's the bureaucracy that stands in the way, coupled with the lack of awareness at the political level that this technology is a gamechanger. And the bureaucracy is dug in. It's no different than Council endorsing energy conservation but not knowing what a LED light bulb is, and therefore not reacting if Toronto Hydro were to insist that only tungsten light bulbs be used in the city.
This *is* a big deal.
- Paul
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The people inside the Transportation Department would be the same people against speed limiters or governors in cars, but will demand them on transit vehicles. See link.
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Amare
Senior Member
I'd describe it as much more than a minor shortcoming. Having no signal priority will allow for bunching to happen on the at-grade section of the line, much in the same way bunching occurs on the 510 Spadina route. The TTC's poor line management will certainly allow for it there's no doubt about that. Even though all vehicles will have GPS which will allow them to know the exact positioning of each vehicle, it's clear they dont know how to use it properly.
Implementing transit priority iin the future certainly can be done in the future, but the thing with Toronto is this: if it doesnt happen from the outset , there's a very slim chance of it ever being implemented.
Kraylin
Active Member
I admire your positivity but pointing out that the Yonge subway line also has shortcomings doesn't lessen the short coming with the Eglinton line. It actually proves again the incompetence in Toronto transit.
H4F33Z
Active Member
No guys, this is not a minor issue. If you've been to Eglinton in the past year. You probably saw the LEFT TURN SIGNAL. 12/15 surface intersections currently have left turn signals to let cars turn or u-turn. This is where the problems starts. THE LEFT TURN SIGNALS ARE 20 SECONDS LONG! If we do some simple math, in the really worst-case scenario where the LRT has to stop at every red. 12 x 20 = 240 seconds or 4 minutes. That's a lot of waiting for rapid transit. That also does not include dwell time at stops.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Do you have photos of the LEFT TURN SIGNALS. Do they still have the visual clutter of verbage signs? Do the left turn signals still use solid yellow and solid red lights? If so, will it be the 22nd century before we see...
Amare
Senior Member
Assuming these numbers are correct:
4 minutes waiting for Left Turn signalling would result in 10% longer travel times (assuming one is traveling from Mount Dennis to Kennedy) solely waiting for left turning vehicles. If you factor in the rest of the non-signal priority mess, that number could easily rocket up to 15-20%.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
It's the one thing every transit user requested and it's the one thing that's not being implemented.
The signal problems are an issue with age and lack of SOGR maintenance. You don't have somewhat regular signal issues on systems, with the exception of NYC. I've never heard of any recurring signal issues on SEPTA's BSL or Boston's Red/Orange lines. I guarantee that if you neglected the crosstown signaling system for 50 years, the reliability would be even worse than the Yonge Subway's fixed block signaling system today.
Almost every other delay is attributed to passenger conduct — Tresspassors at track levels, injuries at track level (Priority Ones), Track Fires, Toronto Police Investigations, "Power Off" situations (Usually trespassers at track level), Emergency Alarm Pressing, Aggravated passengers, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if half of all "mechanical issues" are caused by vandalism or accidental damage (Holding the doors open, taking a dump on the train, etc). You aren't going to escape these delays with the crosstown.
Unless transit priority can only really be achieved with grade separation (because surface traffic management and ease of movement still has to occur), then we just built a giant line in the wrong place.
H4F33Z
Active Member
I'll try to get some footage later. I frequent the area of Eglinton quite frequently. The dedicated left turn phases feel like they take forever, and only a few cars go through anyway.
Allandale25
Senior Member
But isn't the context piece that the trip will be 60% faster than today's status quo? Getting back to something I posted earlier, I don't see why the situation can't be improved if in the first few months of operation they can determine giving more priority would improve the situation. Of course it would take advocacy and probably local City Councillors to push City staff to allow for it. I also don't see why a Councillor couldn't introduce a motion between now and opening day to change the situation.
Coolstar
Senior Member
They still state priority signalling at intersections. Given how old they are, it's quite possible Metrolinx or TTS scrapped the idea of priority signalling last minute (Most Likely) or priority signalling is still going ahead as planned and it was just another case of Metrolinx not knowing what's going on with what they're building. (Less Likely)
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crs1026
Senior Member
20 seconds of waiting may be attributable to left turns, but how many seconds in addition waiting thru the red before the left turn?
Transit priority at its proper level of implementation means approaching vehicle is detected and the green is held until it has cleared the intersection, ie no red at all. Or, if detected after a yellow has triggered, the opposing cross traffic time is reduced to minimize LRT waiting time at the light. In a hit-every-red worst case scenario, that’s a lot of waiting, much more than 4 minutes.
I regularly drive St Clair, and despite ever worsening traffic congestion, I can beat the streetcar Keele to Bathurst, withoutbeing aggressive. That’s where Crosstown could end up without transit priority signalling.
- Paul
W. K. Lis
Superstar
In the (remote) chance that there could be a light rail stoppage of some sort, and need to be replaced by buses...
Could there be alleged transit priority with replacement buses? Could they run buses on alleged transit priority in the days, weeks, (hopefully not) months before the light rail vehicles take over?
Could there be alleged transit priority with replacement buses? Could they run buses on alleged transit priority in the days, weeks, (hopefully not) months before the light rail vehicles take over?