Buying in "Transitional" Neighbourhoods?

[sunshine14]

Hey everyone - newbie here.

I was recently looking to rent a new place but decided that I'd like to consider buying as well to weigh out the options.

I would like to stay East of Yonge, and generally south of Bloor, and originally was mostly interested in Cabbagetown and Riverdale.

My agent sent me a listing for a place on Berkeley (just north of Shuter) that seems nice, but I'm concerned about the area.

The street itself seems very nice, but Shuter/Dundas seem kind of sketchy, but the agent mentioned that this area is in transition and should be better in 5-10 years.

Does that make sense?

Would you live there?

Thanks in advance.

 

[cdr108]

I don't live there but I don't think it's as bad as some ppl think.

However, that being said you should NOT be paying a premium.
Unfortunately, from what I've seen many properties in 'up and coming/transitional' areas are asking almost 'prime' areas when you consider the lot size, condition of property, cost to renovate, etc.

Also, during an economic downturn, the 'prime' areas will retain their prices better than 'up and coming/transitional' areas ... another thing to consider when looking at prices, etc.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Dundas and Sherbourne was thought to be "transitional" over 30 years ago when some people I knew bought houses on Seaton, but the transit has mostly been in the opposite direction from what they assumed.

 

[sunshine14]

I definitely see your point about not paying a premium. That certainly wouldn't make sense.

I guess I haven't lived in Toronto long enough to know whether the area has gotten better/stayed the same/declined - interesting what Urbanshocker wrote about it transitioning down over the past 30 years.

Were your friends unhappy with their home on Seaton? Or is it more they were just unhappy about the value of their home?

Thanks again.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Pfft, it's not that bad at all. I've walked home along Shuter street at all hours at the night and never felt at all uneasy. I'm on Seaton south of Dundas - renting, not buying.

Dundas is sketchy and I avoid it, but it's not particularly scary or anything.

You'll see some weird stuff and some whacked out people, but you'll adjust. I really like living here and have developed a crazy loyalty to East-side Downtown.

NOW had a blurb about Dundas East a while back: http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=167544

 

[Felino]

The street itself seems very nice, but Shuter/Dundas seem kind of sketchy, but the agent mentioned that this area is in transition and should be better in 5-10 years.

Does that make sense?

Would you live there?

Thanks in advance.

Stay as far away from Shuter/Dundas as you possibly can. The area is riddled with crack hookers, crack dealers, pimps on bikes, the mentally ill, homeless and crazy people.

I'm always shocked that anyone would live east of Yonge until Broadview. After Broadview, you're fine. If you insist on going east, simply avoid going east unless it's Cabbagetown where there are very good neighbourhood watch programs in place. Anything else is a complete disaster.

Do yourself a favour: drive slowly through the east-end on a sunny day (they come out in droves) and examine. Play attention to what's happening near Dundas/Shuter, Sherbourne/Gerrard, Parliament/Gerrard, etc... There are young (and some older) punk crackheads roaming every street looking for a quick break-in, crack hookers doing the chicken and pimps on bikes.

If you want a bargain, try Dufferin/Lansdowne, Dufferin/Bloor or the Junction. There are elements of the above, but in much less of it. Plus, there's better access to subways off of Dufferin.

 

[Felino]

Pfft, it's not that bad at all. I've walked home along Shuter street at all hours at the night and never felt at all uneasy. I'm on Seaton south of Dundas - renting, not buying.

Dundas is sketchy and I avoid it, but it's not particularly scary or anything.

You'll see some weird stuff and some whacked out people, but you'll adjust. I really like living here and have developed a crazy loyalty to East-side Downtown.

NOW had a blurb about Dundas East a while back: http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=167544

For me it's not about being scary. It's about the craziness of crackheads roaming the streets at night, having hookers with their johns parking outside your laneway, etc...I wouldn't feel safe, and given the odds, something is bound to happen eventually to everyone who lives on the side streets surrounding these neighbourhoods.

 

[Felino]

Oh, and the parts you mentioned are not neighbourhoods in transition.

The east end has been crack heaven for decades. It's not about to change. Many of the cities homes for the 'undesirables' (I don't mean this in a bad way) are littered throughout. Drive from Gerrard near Jarvis and make a turn onto George St at night if you want to know what I mean. It's f*cking insanity!!!!! Also, the street next to George St (can't remember the name) is much the same.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Dude, you're making it sound like Mad Max or something. It's nowhere near what you're saying.

And you're being completely unfair to East of Yonge -- sure, take away the areas around Moss Park and Allen Gardens,but you've still got the St. Lawrence neighbourhood and Corktown.

 

[Felino]

Oh, and the parts you mentioned are not neighbourhoods in transition.

The east end has been crack heaven for decades. It's not about to change. Many of the cities homes for the 'undesirables' (I don't mean this in a bad way) are littered throughout. Drive from Gerrard near Jarvis and make a turn onto George St at night if you want to know what I mean.

All of the streets east of Yonge have some form of shelter or 'housing'. There is way too much of a concentration for 'normal' people. Unless you're a nut case libertarian (or gay person, sometimes both), stay away for the east. When I say gay, I don't mean this in a bad way. Gay people seem to have taken a liking this part for it's proximity to Church St, and it's a lot cheaper to buy a home here than the few Victorians that surround Church St.

 

[JayBee]

If you're going to live east of Younge....south from Bloor, north of Wellesley East to about Jarvis.

Then go from Queen St. East on down East of Younge is quite nice.

Are you talking about that new building at Shuter? That area isn't THAT bad, but Shuter and Dundas is a mess...Dundas all the way east from Younge is just horrible. I went to Ryerson so I know that area pretty well.

 

[Felino]

Dude, you're making it sound like Mad Max or something. It's nowhere near what you're saying.

And you're being completely unfair to East of Yonge -- sure, take away the areas around Moss Park and Allen Gardens,but you've still got the St. Lawrence neighbourhood and Corktown.

Sure, the St.Lawrence neighbourhood is great, as is Corktown. I should have been more specific. South of King and you're fine. That's not the area I'm targeting. I would say east of Yonge, south of Bloor (excluding Church St which is vibrant and generally safe) west of Broadview (excluding Cabbagetown which is a fantastic part) and north of King.

 

[sunshine14]

Pfft, it's not that bad at all. I've walked home along Shuter street at all hours at the night and never felt at all uneasy. I'm on Seaton south of Dundas - renting, not buying.

Dundas is sketchy and I avoid it, but it's not particularly scary or anything.

You'll see some weird stuff and some whacked out people, but you'll adjust. I really like living here and have developed a crazy loyalty to East-side Downtown.

NOW had a blurb about Dundas East a while back: http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=167544

Thanks for your input - that is about the same area (just 2 streets West) - you like it? How long have you been there?

It seems like Seaton/Ontario/Berkeley are quite nice and seem to have a neighbourhood feel, but they stand in quite the contrast to Dundas etc.

 

[Urban Shocker]

I knew two groups of gay men who moved to Seaton Street in the late 1970s and early '80s. One was the Glad Day Bookshop collective, mostly guys in the arts and publishing, who lived in a house on the east side of the street just south of Dundas. The other was a house on the west side of the street just north of Dundas with artists and political queens. Florida's "gay index" isn't a perfect predictor of which neighbourhoods will gentrify and expand become cultural nodes!

 

[Observer Walt]

At some risk of oversimplifying: east of Yonge and west of the Don River, either stay south of Queen Street (St. Lawrence and Corktown areas), or north of Gerrard (Cabbagetown).

I'm not aware of any streets just east of downtown that I would call "in transition". The strip between Gerrard on the north and Queen on the south has been the pits for years. The above-mentioned better areas have likewise been "better areas" (for lack of a better term), for years. Yes Regent Park is being redeveloped, but IMO it's a bit soon yet to see where that will lead. And the huge and ugly Moss Park looms over everything.

I would further suggest that, if you want an area which is actually in transition, Leslieville, east of the Don, might suit you. It might have appeal particularly if you are a "handyman" or know someone who is. It seems to be gentrifying to a considerable extent, but some in the area apparently haven't yet got the word!