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Brampton GO Station: Proposed Development (if you hate GO surface lots...)

The TTC is actually lowering their parking lot rates.

Exactly! Which is exactly what would happen were GO Transit to introduce fees for use of their parking spots. It would still be cheaper for people than driving to their final destination and trying to pay for parking there (central Toronto).

I know how hard it can be in the 905 to try to get to the train station by any other way than car. Trust me. I live in rural Pickering and even with a bus stop not twenty minutes' walk from me, I know. That's not to mention how shoddy the local transit is here. I also have had some experience with the same thing in Oakville. However, not once last year when I was having to walk to the bus stop, take the bus to the station and then the train did I dream of driving downtown to go to school at George Brown. I know it's only me but I don't imagine a whole whack of people have that much less sense than me. Frankly, it's little excuse.
Of course I think local transit should be improved while parking spots are buried and charged for. Just cause it's not the easiest pill to swallow for some of our more owed members of society, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Seriously, I have really nice shoes and I walked on the gravel shoulder of a country road to get to my bus stop! Cry me a river all ye in Brampton who have access to sidewalks!
 
I've always been fascinated by Brampton GO station, it is one of the few GO stations with urban potential. I've never used it, and I've never lived or worked in or near Brampton, so this is an outsiders take.

I can agree with that....in fact all of the downtown area of Brampton (ie not just the GO station) has interesting urban potential and that is just starting to be realized.

There is a good network of minor roads and trails around this GO station. The potential for bike-and-ride here is very high. If you live in a suburb served by Voddens Street West, Royal Orchard Drive, Murray Street, Fletcher's Creek, Mill Street, Clarence Street, or Centre street, cycling can be a very attractive option, as in: does not involve riding along any major road.

The obstacles are: people are unfamiliar with the minor roads and trail network in the area (they think using a major road is the only option), or they are lazy, or something else I can't think of right now.

So in conclusion, most residents to whom Brampton Station actually is the closest station probably could bike there in under 20 minutes, but they don't for some reason.

The area that the Brampton Station serves (ie that it is the closest station to) is much larger than the area served by those streets though and I would suggest that "most" of its users come from a wider area than that which you have laid out......so perhaps you might want to reconsider the "lazy" comment until you know the area a bit better ;)
 
As has been made clear, people like to drive. The 600+ parking spots are full before even the 3rd train comes. So how do the riders of trains 3 and 4 get to the station, since the lot's already full?

They fill up the other two parking lots. The main lot (the 649 spots being replaced by the hotel if this proposal were to go forward) is just one of 3 lots.

Ridership on this line isn't limited by the parking lot sizes, it's limited by the number and frequency of trains. There is pent-up demand whether parking exists or not.

It is likely limited by a combination of factors.


And one reason GO stations often aren't served directly by buses might be because they're on the far side of 15 acre parking lots. ;)

This station is directly connected to a bus terminal.
 
\And if Brampton Transit is anything like Mississauga Transit, it's not an option for a lot of people unless you like to stand around waiting for a bus for half an hour, only to miss your train or bus and have to wait another half hour (if you're lucky).

The only routes out of Downtown Brampton that require a 30-minute wait weekdays are route 24 and 25 (which do have a coordinated 15-minute service on the common parts of the routes up to Vodden/Williams Pkwy). Route 2 is every 10 minutes peak, 20 minutes off peak, 1 is every 10 minutes during the day, and extra buses in peak periods, the 52 McMurchy provides a 15 or 20 minute service most of the day as well. With the terminal right there without any convoluted path to get to it (hello, Langstaff/Richmond Hill!), it's a painless transfer to most buses by GO Transit station standards - anywhere - when the trains are running at least.
 
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Where exactly would people go if their precious free parking were to be taken away? Surely they wouldn't spend even more money than GO could ever hope to charge them for parking and drive all the way to work and then pay exorbitant parking stall fees, would they?

Keeping it related to the station and subject at hand....I can only speak for myself but, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, driving to the station and training into union and walking to my office is roughly a break even (in terms of time) proposition for me so using public transit to the GO station would mean that driving takes less time for me. Sure it would cost me more to drive (not as much as you might think....given that parking at my office building is roughly the same cost per month as a monthly GO pass plus the cost of a BT pass....so the extra is more gas and a bit more wear and tear on car)....ofsetting the slight increase in cost is the massive increase in flexibility.


Do you guys honestly believe that without free parking, people are going to abandon GO Transit en masse? Or is this just some seemingly irrational fear you guys cling to, as it seems?

I don't feel I am being irrational....if I am, show me how...if not stop the name calling please...it serves no purpose.
 
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A hotel and conference centre would have to be quite large to take up all of that parking lot. Of course it will have some useless 'park' or other contrived public space, but there should be room for a small parking structure to hold a few hundred cars.

If the station loses some parking, it will survive. Its has decent local transit links, and must even have some walk-ins. Either way, good to see more development up there.

The proposal as it sits now is to take 649 surface spots and replace them with 250 - 300 underground spots......which would likely not be exclusive to GO users (given that there would now be a 300 room hotel and a convention centre on top of them). Is that "some" parking or a significant reduction.

Some people on here have tried to turn this (on purpose or accidently...I don't know) into a debate over pay or not pay parking at GO. I think this is about dramatic reduction in parking access.....not, primarily, if parking should be free or not.
 
Maybe everyone will just shift to other stations...are the two closest stations' lots typically full?[/qote]

Bramalea station (one stop closer to Union) has two very large parking lots which are near (if not at) maximum usage now. Mt. Pleasant (one stop further away from Union) is full and expanding.....so is the population around Mt. Pleasant (it is in the high growth area of Northwest Brampton) so any increases to that lot will be absorbed by the rapid population growth.
 
I wasn't saying you were being irrational; I was stating that the belief that GO Transit relies on its free parking for its customer base and that people will abandon in en masse should their free parking be taken away from them is an irrational fear based on not actually knowing what the vast majority of people using GO Transit are thinking. Though, I suppose if you do believe that and fear that which I do not....then, yeah, I guess I was calling you irrational.

You forgot to factor in the traffic time. I do it now as I work in construction: I spend two hours of my life trying to stay alive on the 401 every day to and from work. I would much rather be sitting on a train, even if it took as long and cost me as much. In fact, I'd rather spend that time reading even if it did cost me more. Now, I realise that you're not an anamoly, but then, neither am I.

I guess this could just boil down to a certain mindset that permeates the suburbs after all. No fighting that behemoth.
 
I wasn't saying you were being irrational; I was stating that the belief that GO Transit relies on its free parking for its customer base and that people will abandon in en masse should their free parking be taken away from them is an irrational fear based on not actually knowing what the vast majority of people using GO Transit are thinking. Though, I suppose if you do believe that and fear that which I do not....then, yeah, I guess I was calling you irrational.

Not sure if you have had a chance to read back to the start of this.....I have not ever said that everyone would en masse abandon GO. I have said some will and it seems like a backward step to be making any station (particularly one in the middle of a city of 500,000 people that has just had a fairly significant investment in upgrades) less accessible/attractive. To say everyone will abandon would be irrational....to say that some will is not irrational and to say that it will make it harder to attract new riders is certainly not irrational.


You forgot to factor in the traffic time.

I did not. I usually dirve and ocassionaly use GO. As I said, on a door to door basis, it is roughly break even now from a time basis. Adding 15 minutes extra for BT to get me to the station would make driving (usually) faster.

I guess this could just boil down to a certain mindset that permeates the suburbs after all. No fighting that behemoth.

I don't think people think in a mindset determined by where they live. I think people think for themselves and make individual judgements based on their own situation. If prefering to drive was a strictly suburban resident mindset how can we explain the clogged gardiner/qew westbound in the morning? Are there not GO trains that run westbound on the Lakeshore line in the morning? Should those urbanites who live in the city but have to trudge to the burbs for work not be fully invested in the transit ideal?
 
The area that the Brampton Station serves (ie that it is the closest station to) is much larger than the area served by those streets though and I would suggest that "most" of its users come from a wider area than that which you have laid out......so perhaps you might want to reconsider the "lazy" comment until you know the area a bit better ;)
I'm sure people come from far and wide, but here, I'm speculating that for residents outside this specified area, Bramalea and Mount Joy aren't signficantly farther. Any truth to that?
 
I'm sure people come from far and wide, but here, I'm speculating that for residents outside this specified area, Bramalea and Mount Joy aren't signficantly farther. Any truth to that?

I can tell you that I live a 10 minute drive (most days) from Brampton....30+ minutes to Bramalea and 13 - 15 minutes to Mt. Pleasant...

I obviously have no way of knowing this but I assume that I live about an "average" commute time from the Brampton station (ie. I know people who travel farther to it and there are, as you point out, people who travel less distance to it).

When I use BT to the GO I usually go to Mt. Pleasant (slightly longer trip for me but does not require a transfer so "one less thing to go wrong") and note that the parking lot there is full....with the ever expanding population in that part of town that is not a problem likely to be solved with the current expansion of parking there (ie. the immediate area will likely absorb that pretty quickly).

As with everything, this is really not a black and white "easy to solve" dilema. I would suspect that the Brampton station likely draws people that actually live a bit closer to Mt. Pleasant because the cost of the commute is cheaper from Brampton. If GO (or anyone) wants to propose that people use Mt. Pleasant as a solution to any parking shortage (or cost of parking at Brampton if that is the direction they wanna move) then what they are essentially saying is "one Brampton, one GO transit, multiple solutions"....and they should really be looking at "one fare from Brampton"...but, as I said, none of these issues are really as simple as they might look.

Posters here might say "move closer to work" or "take transit to the station" or "go to another station" or "pay for parking" but those are all one-dimensional suggestions to a much more complex issues.....and the problem is that there is never a solution that works for all and finding the one that works for the most is really what it is about.
 
I was never referring to you specifically. Some posts here made it seem like it would be the end of GO Transit were they to get rid of all the free parking. An idea I found to be an irrational fear among some who are perhaps afraid to rock the boat that is the status quo.

By "traffic time" I meant actually sitting behind the wheel on heavily-travelled roadways; the act itself, not the time it takes. Perhaps it doesn't bother others as much as it does me. Perhaps it bothers me most that I have no choice in the matter for the time being. I don't know, I just find it very vexing and stressful.

I still don't understand how, with improved local transit, or even now, these free parking spots cannot be eliminated. If ridership did go down, how long would it possibly stay lower before rebounding and continuing on with its upwardly trend? I just think the importance of these massive space-wasting free parking complexes is overstated, and leads to an even worse culture of entitlement among drivers.

Eliminate free parking.
Drop train fares to reflect parking fee introduction.
And for the love of all that is even remotely sacred: get rid of these damn surface lots. Especially those at stations such as Brampton and Pickering. Come to think of it, perhaps something similar should be planned for the Pickering parking lot lands, now that the highway overpass is buing built.
 
Posters here might say "move closer to work" or "take transit to the station" or "go to another station" or "pay for parking" but those are all one-dimensional suggestions to a much more complex issues.....and the problem is that there is never a solution that works for all and finding the one that works for the most is really what it is about.

I'm sorry, but complex how? How would taking transit to the train station prove to be an overwhelming and complex endeavour? I've already stated here that, I, personally, when attending George Brown College last year, did walk nearly 20 minutes on the shoulder of a country road in rural Pickering with a speed limit of 80 to get to the nearest bus stop where I waited for a bus that took me to the train station. And repeat on the way home. What's so hard about that? Granted, I'm young, but any able-bodied person could do the same thing, especially in a setting where they'd be walking on a sidewalk along dead suburban side streets.
Solution for most, it is. This assuming that most people are able to walk ten to fifteen minutes to a bus stop, which I don't think is much of an assumption as it is a fairly logical deduction.

I don't understand how complex it can possibly be. Get from point A to B in the most efficient manner possible. That's complex?


And, I should add: I very much doubt that any transit system in the GTA is worse than Durham Region Transit's operations in Pickering-Ajax.
 
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And if Brampton Transit is anything like Mississauga Transit, it's not an option for a lot of people unless you like to stand around waiting for a bus for half an hour, only to miss your train or bus and have to wait another half hour (if you're lucky).

I'm not sure how it is lucky to wait half an hour for half hourly service since theoretically that is the maximum possible waiting time. With half hourly service is the average wait time is 15 minutes. Only with 60 minute frequency would the wait times be 30 minutes often.

And besides, most MT routes have better than 30 min frequency ( and Brampton Transit service levels are similar).
 
I was never referring to you specifically. Some posts here made it seem like it would be the end of GO Transit were they to get rid of all the free parking. An idea I found to be an irrational fear among some who are perhaps afraid to rock the boat that is the status quo.

By "traffic time" I meant actually sitting behind the wheel on heavily-travelled roadways; the act itself, not the time it takes. Perhaps it doesn't bother others as much as it does me. Perhaps it bothers me most that I have no choice in the matter for the time being. I don't know, I just find it very vexing and stressful.

I think most people view traffic time as how long it takes. Each individual would measure the "stress level" differently. My reference was just that if it is break-even now......making GO take longer (and that was the only reason I gave my personal example) tilts the decision arrow more in favour of the car.....something that I thought the general goal was against.

I still don't understand how, with improved local transit, or even now, these free parking spots cannot be eliminated. If ridership did go down, how long would it possibly stay lower before rebounding and continuing on with its upwardly trend? I just think the importance of these massive space-wasting free parking complexes is overstated, and leads to an even worse culture of entitlement among drivers.

In the context of this discussion (ie. is building a hotel/convention centre on currently free parking) there is no notion of "improved local transit" and, in the article that started this discussion, there is no mention that "with the elimination of 350-400 parking spots there would be improved local transit". As for the situation now, we already know that there is local transit in Brampton to all 3 GO stations yet, on a daily basis, over 3,700 parking spots get filled. I would just suggest that it is incredibly naive to assume that if you started charging for parking (or eliminated parking) that all of the occupants of those cars would continue to use GO by finding alternative ways to the station or paying for parking. I have no idea (nor does anyone) how many would continue to use GO (or, in inverse, change their way of getting to work) all that I have suggested (and am pretty comfortable with this statement) that not all would reach the same decision....GO will/would lose some.....have no idea how many "some" is but the goal is not to lose passengers on GO but to add....to go back to my original post here.....it has to be considered when looking at this proposed development.
 

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