Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[kEiThZ]

Adam Vaughan has been working steadily to ensure that it's difficult for a future Conservative government to allow jets on the island. Designating a bird sanctuary on the island and residential construction in the Portlands approach are some of the actions being taken.

I wish the argument was based on noise standards as opposed to a type of technology. We're fast reaching the point where jets flying in could be quieter than a similar capacity turboprop flying in. And approach like what is used at London City (including a consideration of cumulative noise impact would serve the city better).

The UPX's reliable 25 min trip to Pearson is making the case for an island airport less attractive both for passengers and for larger airlines who can run their bigger planes from the major airport.

People who think this don't travel enough. And don't travel enough regionally (within a 2hr flight time of Toronto). 25 mins to access an airport when flying 1-2 hrs is a bigger deal than when flying 4 hrs to Florida or 8 hrs to Europe. YTZ is 15 mins by transit and 10 by Uber from Union. Then there's the longer preflight times at Pearson. All in, UPE made Pearson just a tad less uncompetitive on regional travel. This is why you aren't seeing UPE put the dent in Porter that many were hoping would happen.

There is only one way to cut demand at YTZ: better Intercity rail. And to that point, really only high speed rail. HFR will put a dent in flights to Ottawa. Won't change much on flights to Montreal. And won't reduce the air taxi flights to Waterloo.

 

[MetroMan]

There is only one way to cut demand at YTZ: better Intercity rail. And to that point, really only high speed rail. HFR will put a dent in flights to Ottawa. Won't change much on flights to Montreal. And won't reduce the air taxi flights to Waterloo.

I fly quite a bit and not too long ago, I was flying to Montreal several times a month.

I live within a 10 minute walk of the UPX Terminal. 25 minutes to Pearson from Union Station is a dream when remembering the 45 minute cab ride in decent traffic we used to put up with. In Toronto traffic from the the financial district to Billy Bishop, can easily take 15-20 minutes. I know plenty of business travellers who prefer to stroll through the PATH from their Bay Street office to UPX and arrive at Pearson in a reliable time frame.

The real pain points that justified a downtown airport are gone and frankly so are the benefits. Porter used to feel like an exclusive experience. You could sail through check-in and security in seconds and get to your gate in time to enjoy cookies and coffee in peace and quiet with other business travellers. Today, Billy Bishop’s tighter security, lineups at the check-in counters and screaming kids in the lounge are not much different than Pearson, just in a smaller terminal.

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park with the feds kicking out the airport, perhaps offering a land swap up at Downsview where recreational flying and medical helicopters can fly from. Walkable access to Centre Island from Bathurst Quay would totally transform Toronto’s relationship with the island, 820 acres of park at the foot of downtown. For perspective, New York’s Central Park is 840 acres.

 

[Megaton327]

I still find the time it takes at Billy Bishop to get from the check-in area to the gate is FAR shorter than at Pearson, at most times. Customs lineups when returning from the US too, though I have a Nexus card so I rarely have to wait even at Pearson.

As for travel time from home to gate, I used to live at Fort York and Bathurst, once the tunnel opened I could walk from the door of my unit to the check-in area at YTZ through the tunnel in about 20 minutes, then I could be through security (even before I had Nexus) and at the gate in 10-20 minutes, so about 40 minutes max from my apartment door to the gate. Cost to get there was $0.

On the other hand, it would usually take me about 25-40 minutes to take the 509 to Union (including wait time), 5 minutes to walk through the station to the UPX station, then up to a 15 minute wait for the train, about 25 minutes to the airport, 5 minute walk to T1 security or 10 minute LINK ride+walk to T3 security, anywhere from 15 minutes to about an hour for security (though some people have waited longer), then up to 5 minutes walk to the gate. That's anywhere from 1 hour and 30 minutes to 2 hours and 35 minutes of door-to-gate travel time. And since it could vary, you have to account for the worst case scenario and allocate yourself the longer travel time. Since I got Nexus, the security situation is much better since there are usually minimal lines, but I'm always amazed how busy the regular line is. And the cost of the trip was a TTC fare plus a UPX fare, each way.

 

[innsertnamehere]

i'd be surprised if Downsview is still an active airport in 5 years, yet alone 13.

 

[lenaitch]

I fly quite a bit and not too long ago, I was flying to Montreal several times a month.

I live within a 10 minute walk of the UPX Terminal. 25 minutes to Pearson from Union Station is a dream when remembering the 45 minute cab ride in decent traffic we used to put up with. In Toronto traffic from the the financial district to Billy Bishop, can easily take 15-20 minutes. I know plenty of business travellers who prefer to stroll through the PATH from their Bay Street office to UPX and arrive at Pearson in a reliable time frame.

The real pain points that justified a downtown airport are gone and frankly so are the benefits. Porter used to feel like an exclusive experience. You could sail through check-in and security in seconds and get to your gate in time to enjoy cookies and coffee in peace and quiet with other business travellers. Today, Billy Bishop’s tighter security, lineups at the check-in counters and screaming kids in the lounge are not much different than Pearson, just in a smaller terminal.

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park with the feds kicking out the airport, perhaps offering a land swap up at Downsview where recreational flying and medical helicopters can fly from. Walkable access to Centre Island from Bathurst Quay would totally transform Toronto’s relationship with the island, 820 acres of park at the foot of downtown. For perspective, New York’s Central Park is 840 acres.

It seems the federal government has little at Downsview to trade.

Federal Government = Canada Lands Company

id8 Downsview

The Downsview Lands in north Toronto surround Downsview Park, one of Toronto’s largest urban greenspaces. Its five neighbourhoods will be developed over time and will be interconnected, incorporating excellent transit, walking and cycling networks.

en.clc.ca

 

[Towered]

I fly quite a bit and not too long ago, I was flying to Montreal several times a month.

I live within a 10 minute walk of the UPX Terminal. 25 minutes to Pearson from Union Station is a dream when remembering the 45 minute cab ride in decent traffic we used to put up with. In Toronto traffic from the the financial district to Billy Bishop, can easily take 15-20 minutes. I know plenty of business travellers who prefer to stroll through the PATH from their Bay Street office to UPX and arrive at Pearson in a reliable time frame.

The real pain points that justified a downtown airport are gone and frankly so are the benefits. Porter used to feel like an exclusive experience. You could sail through check-in and security in seconds and get to your gate in time to enjoy cookies and coffee in peace and quiet with other business travellers. Today, Billy Bishop’s tighter security, lineups at the check-in counters and screaming kids in the lounge are not much different than Pearson, just in a smaller terminal.

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park with the feds kicking out the airport, perhaps offering a land swap up at Downsview where recreational flying and medical helicopters can fly from. Walkable access to Centre Island from Bathurst Quay would totally transform Toronto’s relationship with the island, 820 acres of park at the foot of downtown. For perspective, New York’s Central Park is 840 acres.

We can hope. There are many better potential uses of the island airport's sprawling footprint, some of which have been mentioned here.

 

[Kraylin]

All the talk above has some good points although very personal desires. That being said YTZ and YYZ serve very different markets and simply shouldnt be compared the way you are comparing them.

 

[kEiThZ]

I live within a 10 minute walk of the UPX Terminal.

I suspect this colours your view of the situation substantially. There's a lot more to downtown than the 10 min walking radius of Union. Also, there's a lot more traffic through YTZ that isn't originating in Toronto or bound for a destination within a 10 min walk of UPX.

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park with the feds kicking out the airport, perhaps offering a land swap up at Downsview where recreational flying and medical helicopters can fly from.

Downsview at this point is very likely to be redeveloped. Especially when Bombardier wraps up there. So closure of YTZ very likely means the realization of Pickering. The fight between downtown elites and suburbanites is going to get really interesting. Especially when we see the socioeconomic data coming out of communities near Pearson.

I do actually agree with closing YTZ. But I can't see it happening without a serious build up of intercity rail.

 

[blacksquirrels]

I fly quite a bit and not too long ago, I was flying to Montreal several times a month.

I live within a 10 minute walk of the UPX Terminal. 25 minutes to Pearson from Union Station is a dream when remembering the 45 minute cab ride in decent traffic we used to put up with. In Toronto traffic from the the financial district to Billy Bishop, can easily take 15-20 minutes. I know plenty of business travellers who prefer to stroll through the PATH from their Bay Street office to UPX and arrive at Pearson in a reliable time frame.

The real pain points that justified a downtown airport are gone and frankly so are the benefits. Porter used to feel like an exclusive experience. You could sail through check-in and security in seconds and get to your gate in time to enjoy cookies and coffee in peace and quiet with other business travellers. Today, Billy Bishop’s tighter security, lineups at the check-in counters and screaming kids in the lounge are not much different than Pearson, just in a smaller terminal.

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park with the feds kicking out the airport, perhaps offering a land swap up at Downsview where recreational flying and medical helicopters can fly from. Walkable access to Centre Island from Bathurst Quay would totally transform Toronto’s relationship with the island, 820 acres of park at the foot of downtown. For perspective, New York’s Central Park is 840 acres.

Yes exactly even without the land swap.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The commercial airport terminal’s lease expires in 2033. After Porter's likely demise, I'd like to see Centre Island designated a National Park. Walkable access to Centre Island from Bathurst Quay would totally transform Toronto’s relationship with the island, 820 acres of park at the foot of downtown. For perspective, New York’s Central Park is 840 acres.

I can just imagine the homeless encampments on the former airport park. NYPD ensures that doesn’t happen in Central Park, but TPS don’t have the nerve or political backing to follow NYC’s lead. We’re more like Seattle or Vancouver, liberal minded cities where huge swaths of public land have been surrendered to tent cities due to some sense of public guilt. Instead, we need a New Yorker’s POV. One of the best things about the Toronto Islands is the pay to play ferry access keeping it civil. When I visit the Islands with my family it feels like the parks I used to visit in the 1970s, with no litter, lightly supervised kids running around having fun while their parents, uncles and aunts arrange a picnic. That level of childhood and parental freedom and civility is driven by the controlled access. What this city doesn’t need is another Allan Gardens like flop park. So, if we’re going to have a walkable access park in the former airport grounds we need to grow a pair and enforce the existing laws and by-laws that encourage normal public discourse and civility such as on littering, public intoxication, vandalism, sleeping in parks and public nuisance. Anyone who sees the litter, garbage and encampments under the Gardiner and along Lakeshore Bvld, Bayview Extension and Rosedale Valley Road should recognize that this city is just not ready to have nice public spaces downtown.

But I’m fine with the status quo. The Island is a great park to visit because of its limited access. The airport is great to have, and will likely have its permits or leases extended into the 2040s. One of the best parts of the airport is you avoid the chaos of Pearson, not the travel there, but the experience overall with the kilometres of walking, ages waiting for luggage, huge security lines, etc and then landing at equally busy airports. Fly from Billy Bishop and you often go to smaller airports, where deplaning is an ease, such as at Chicago Midway Instead of O’Hare. As for noise, anyone who’s ever heard a Piaggio P.180 Avanti take off from Billy Bishop would be surprised at how quieter a modern jet can be.

 

[adHominem]

Some people's reaction to people sleeping in parks is more "wow, we need to build more housing", and not "wow, we need cops to bust heads like the NYPD, a service notorious for its frequent excessive use of force", but different strokes, I guess.

And not for nothing, but "a great park to visit because of its limited access" strikes me as a real "Robert Moses building bridges deliberately low so buses carrying poor people can't get to public beaches" sort of argument. (I know that anecdote from The Power Broker may be apocryphal but it springs to mind nonetheless.)

 

[PinkLucy]

As for noise, anyone who’s ever heard a Piaggio P.180 Avanti take off from Billy Bishop would be surprised at how quieter a modern jet can be.

I lived near to, and then across from, the airport for about 10 years. Take offs and landings aren't the noise issue as much as engine run-ups / maintenance. That's loud. Regular airport noise is handy though, it was my alarm clock every morning -- foggy mornings when things were shut down, I'd wake up and wonder what happened to the noise.

That said, it's a noisy area in general. It's a city. There's traffic, sirens, and construction. Having the airport within walking distance was great, especially when my spouse was doing frequent inter-city travel.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I can just imagine the homeless encampments on the former airport park. NYPD ensures that doesn’t happen in Central Park, but TPS don’t have the nerve or political backing to follow NYC’s lead. We’re more like Seattle or Vancouver, liberal minded cities where huge swaths of public land have been surrendered to tent cities due to some sense of public guilt. Instead, we need a New Yorker’s POV. One of the best things about the Toronto Islands is the pay to play ferry access keeping it civil. When I visit the Islands with my family it feels like the parks I used to visit in the 1970s, with no litter, lightly supervised kids running around having fun while their parents, uncles and aunts arrange a picnic. That level of childhood and parental freedom and civility is driven by the controlled access. What this city doesn’t need is another Allan Gardens like flop park. So, if we’re going to have a walkable access park in the former airport grounds we need to grow a pair and enforce the existing laws and by-laws that encourage normal public discourse and civility such as on littering, public intoxication, vandalism, sleeping in parks and public nuisance. Anyone who sees the litter, garbage and encampments under the Gardiner and along Lakeshore Bvld, Bayview Extension and Rosedale Valley Road should recognize that this city is just not ready to have nice public spaces downtown.

That's a rather myopic viewpoint. The islands are nice because of the paid ferry barrier, that keeps the poor out. We all know wealthy people are better parents than poor people, hence the "lightly supervised kids having fun" vs "spoiled brats causing havoc"

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's a rather myopic viewpoint. The islands are nice because of the paid ferry barrier, that keeps the poor out. We all know wealthy people are better parents than poor people, hence the "lightly supervised kids having fun" vs "spoiled brats causing havoc"

Who are the spoiled brats? The islands are hardly the domain of the GTA's wealthy people, they're up in Muskoka, not slumming it with us in the public parks. I'm referring to the paid ferry barrier helping to maintain order and civility, traits that have nothing to do with family income.

 

[gabe]

I wonder if YTZ. days are numbered? If Porter goes under during these uncertain times, will Air Canada keep flights out of YTZ.?

Can these small airlines afford to have extra covid screening, people social distancing on flights? The whole airline industry is in for a drastic change.