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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

There is a running assumption here that the way to placate Tweed and similarly bypassed areas that the answer to their inconvenience is to provide them a station.

I wonder if we took the cost of adding a station and then asked the people of those localities if they wanted a station or something else for their trouble, whether they would answer "something else" like a new road or other facility.

Fully divide the rest of Highway 7? Tweed is most likely a very car centric place that adding buses would be pointless. So, if adding a regular slow speed passenger rail service is not going to happen, dividing highway 7 between Peterborough and Carletpn Place would likely please them.

Think like a small town resident and the answers are simple.
 
It would be nice if Doug Ford could get behind Alto. Instead he is looking for further ways to destroy the environment and increase global warming. But that seems to be what Ontarians want, given his polling numbers.

I have a hard time believing the PC government wouldn’t support this when the time comes, especially if ALTO ends up sharing infrastructure with Metrolinx (who would benefit from upgraded infrastructure not fully on their dime).

Ford loves big infrastructure projects, and HSR service will make any land around stations extremely valuable.

The Ontario Minister of Transportation supports ALTO:

 

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Because GO buses doesn’t need to operate at a profit,

Neither does local transit.

Tweed doesn’t need an HSR stop. But that doesn’t mean we abandon small communities altogether. If the cost of running a high speed rail through a community is connecting them a little more to other cities, is that something terrible?

1) Learn what scope creep is.

2) They are not owed anything other than making sure their town doesn't get bulldozed completely during the construction process. Their one MP doesn't even have much political sway.

3) They really should stop relying on the federal and provincial government to provide everything. They can pay for local transit too. Paying for a cube van shuttle isn't going to break the bank. And if they don't want to do that, I am fairly sure some local taxi operator will do that.
 
The Ontario Minister of Transportation supports ALTO:

I‘m not sure how anyone could be surprised by Ontario‘s government being supportive of ALTO, given that this project seems to proceed without (so far) asking Ontarian taxpayers for a single Dollar. Also, expect Doug Ford to swoop in once routing options gets published and inevitably become very controversial, to show everyone that he is driving a hard bargain against the federal government to ensure that this project protects for local and provincial interests…
 
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I‘m not sure how anyone could be surprised by ontario‘s government being supportive of ALTO, given that this project seems to proceed without (so far) asking Ontarian taxpayers for a single Dollar. Also, expect Doug Ford to swoop in once routing options gets published and inevitably become very controversial, to show everyone that he is driving a hard bargain agaibst the federal government to ensure that this project protects for local and provincial interests…
or benefits his developer friends...
 
I‘m not sure how anyone could be surprised by Ontario‘s government being supportive of ALTO, given that this project seems to proceed without (so far) asking Ontarian taxpayers for a single Dollar. Also, expect Doug Ford to swoop in once routing options gets published and inevitably become very controversial, to show everyone that he is driving a hard bargain against the federal government to ensure that this project protects for local and provincial interests…
I am very pro-Ontario cooperating with HSR and interregional rail generally, but the messaging from the feds in respect of who owes whom what has to be carefully put and likely out of the public eye, given that to use Union even more than VIA's existing operations, they will need to take advantage of expensive provincial investments in platforms, track, signals and electrification.
 
I am very pro-Ontario cooperating with HSR and interregional rail generally, but the messaging from the feds in respect of who owes whom what has to be carefully put and likely out of the public eye, given that to use Union even more than VIA's existing operations, they will need to take advantage of expensive provincial investments in platforms, track, signals and electrification.
Indeed, there is no shortage of provincial rail infrastructure projects where the federal government could chip in to unlock using them for ALTO…
 
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I am very pro-Ontario cooperating with HSR and interregional rail generally, but the messaging from the feds in respect of who owes whom what has to be carefully put and likely out of the public eye, given that to use Union even more than VIA's existing operations, they will need to take advantage of expensive provincial investments in platforms, track, signals and electrification.

I continue to be surprised that Ontario hasn't been more aggressive in demanding money for VIA's use of the GO Expansion infrastructure. But since we don't get to see the service agreement between ML and VIA, perhaps there are things we don't know.

- Paul
 
Article today in The Logic.

“We need 4,000 kilometres of steel track that has a high carbon density. None is produced today in Canada,” said Martin Imbleau, chief executive of Alto, the Via Rail subsidiary in charge of the multibillion-dollar job.

He said Alto is up to meet the shorter deadline Carney set for it when he included high-speed rail on a longlist of high-priority national construction projects earlier this month. Alto signed a contract with an international consortium called Cadence just this year, expecting to spend up to six years “co-developing” the plans, and Imbleau said he had been prepared for the planning and permits to take as many as eight.

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Talking Points

The Crown corporation assigned to build a new high-speed rail line from Toronto to Quebec City needs 300,000 tonnes of rail-grade steel—and CEO Martin Imbleau is under pressure to get it from tariff-stricken Canadian steelmakers
But free trade has sent that type of steelmaking to the United States, and potential suppliers seem lukewarm on retooling
Meanwhile, Prime Minister Mark Carney wants the project to move much faster than his predecessor Justin Trudeau did
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Now, although construction could begin on part of the line without every other section being approved, the target is to start building within four years, with much of the time savings to be found in processes like environmental approvals.

Alto will have to do more planning in parallel instead of in sequence, and that will cost more upfront, Imbleau allowed, but Alto roughly estimates that the project’s costs will escalate by $3.5 billion with each year that passes, so speed now will save in the long run.

But meeting the tighter deadline will bring challenges, particularly when it comes to “strategic procurement”—buying things in a way that supports broader Canadian economic goals.

When the Liberal government under Justin Trudeau started pushing high-speed rail in earnest in 2021, its demand for Canadian materials and workers was a secondary consideration. Now that Canada is in a trade war with the United States, with steel among this country’s hardest-hit industries, buying domestically is extra important.

Imbleau said former transport minister Chrystia Freeland asked him to consider Canadian suppliers, and “we’re doing everything we can to respect that.”

But the stuff needs to be available in quantity, pretty soon, and at a fair price. That’s a tension for any project, especially a publicly backed one on Carney’s list of national priorities.

“What is the depth of the market—who can provide it?” Imbleau said, rhyming off the questions Alto has asked itself about the materials it needs. “Do we have enough competition to keep the competitive tension, to avoid having a sole supplier and increasing the cost?

Canada used to make rail steel and can do it again, said Catherine Cobden, CEO of the Canadian Steel Producers Association, but it doesn’t so now because of decades of free trade integration with the United States.

“Rail lines and certain beams we use in construction and that sort of thing have been served by the U.S. steel supply,” she said.

Three hundred thousand tonnes is both a lot of steel and not very much, Cobden said. Ordinarily, Canada’s industry produces about 12 million tonnes of steel a year and exports about half of it to the U.S.—so although the sector is suffering under 50 per cent American tariffs, tooling up for a new product that would make up only a small fraction of the lost business isn’t an easy yes.

One possible supplier for Alto is ArcelorMittal, a global steel producer with mills in Quebec and Ontario. The company makes rails in Spain, Luxembourg and Poland, so it has the know-how—just not in Canada.

“It’s too early to say whether producing this type of product in Canada would be strategically beneficial for us,” wrote Jean-Philippe Grou, director of communications for ArcelorMittal Long Products Canada, in an email.

The company will look at the opportunity, but that’s as far as Grou would go.

“Many details remain to be determined—including the long-term potential of this specific market and a better understanding of future demand,” he wrote. In other words, after the Alto project, how much more rail steel might ArcelorMittal be able to sell from its Canadian operations?

Algoma Steel, another major potential supplier, didn’t respond to inquiries from The Logic.

“The business case will need to be determined by the companies based on how much they have to pivot,” said Cobden.

The federal government might be willing to help pay for that pivot, Industry Minister Mélanie Joly has said. It has already pledged ArcelorMittal and Algoma more than $800 million to upgrade equipment and cut greenhouse gas emissions.

Other steel will be needed for bridges and stations and the trains themselves. Canadian producers will have no trouble supplying almost all of that, Cobden said.

Gift the full article
Alto will also be looking for Canadian sources of copper for the electric trains’ wires and aluminum for the poles that hold them up, Imbleau said—and they’ll need gravel and aggregates to support the tracks, wherever they come from.

Having the rail project on Carney’s list, though, is already making it easier to deal with potential suppliers, said Imbleau, a former executive at gas company Énergir, Hydro-Québec and the Port of Montreal: “The next day after the announcement, I had tons of emails by old colleagues and construction companies and providers saying, ‘Wow, now you’re credible. Now we can start thinking about how we will support you.’”
 
Article today in The Logic.
Sounds like they're laying the ground work for an exception to Buy Canadian requirements for the steel tracks, due to a lack of enough suppliers that would make the cost reasonable.
Another exemption will likely be necessary for the rolling stock, when they inevitably choose Alstom's Avelia Liberty (which is manufactured in Upstate New York). The reaction to that will be interesting, to say the least.
 
Sounds like they're laying the ground work for an exception to Buy Canadian requirements for the steel tracks, due to a lack of enough suppliers that would make the cost reasonable.
Another exemption will likely be necessary for the rolling stock, when they inevitably choose Alstom's Avelia Liberty (which is manufactured in Upstate New York). The reaction to that will be interesting, to say the least.
Algoma Steel just received a provincial and federal loan to retool. Maybe the 2 are linked.
 
Sounds like they're laying the ground work for an exception to Buy Canadian requirements for the steel tracks, due to a lack of enough suppliers that would make the cost reasonable.
Another exemption will likely be necessary for the rolling stock, when they inevitably choose Alstom's Avelia Liberty (which is manufactured in Upstate New York). The reaction to that will be interesting, to say the least.
I'm certainly not an expert, but why couldn't they get Algoma or one of the Hamilton plants the contract since it's a relatively straightforward thing to make as opposed to a complex component part or beam?
 
I'm certainly not an expert, but why couldn't they get Algoma or one of the Hamilton plants the contract since it's a relatively straightforward thing to make as opposed to a complex component part or beam?
No expert as well but hot rolling rail is little different than hot rolling an I-beam or any other structural member, but you need the tooling (presses, mills, etc.). Algoma used to roll rail but as far as know now only produces coil and plate. I have no clue how long it would take and how much it would cost the re-tool.

Stelco is owned by US-based Cleveland-Cliffs and Dofasco is owned by EU-based ArcelorMittal.

There's going to be a major push to have Canadian steel in our 'nation building projects', including military modernization. Given the amount of steel they would be looking for and the number of Canadian-owned mills, I'm not sure we have the capacity to meet it all.
 

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