Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[Mihairokov]

The European experience suggests that business travelers can be persuaded to prefer the train, so long as it is time-competitive with flying.

Professionals will take the train if they're starting and ending in downtown locations. Professionals who work for the federal government will probably be mandated to take the train.

VIA business class is already full of a variety of business-specific travellers, including myself. There's a market for it even more so with ALTO.

Flying is still faster and is a premium service

Depending on where you're going. Travelling to Pearson, security, boarding, flight, deboarding, suddenly you're in Dorval, then heading into Montreal...train will absolutely be faster than CBD-YYZ-YUL-CBD.

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA business class is already full of a variety of business-specific travellers, including myself. There's a market for it even more so with ALTO.

Yep. Many employers, (most notably including the public service), encourage VIA 1 over even economy airfare. It's cheaper, especially when the meal expense is included in the calculation.

Alto is all but sure to become the default mode for business travel in the TOM triangle if built.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't see this making much of a dent in air travel.
Alto might pull people off the roads, but for the class of customer who fly this route I don't think there is a compelling reason to switch to Alto.

You are correct, but only for connecting air travellers. If Air Canada’s motivation for joining ALTO was just to prevent its competitors from leveraging ALTO and thus serving passengers in QBEV, TRIV, OTTW and PBOR with a single spoke at YUL, they have already succeeded regardless (!) of whether the thing actually gets built. It really puzzles me what companies weren’t blacklisted, as half of the players in the Cadence team have severe conflicts of interest which create a strong misalignment with public interests…

 

[zang]

Flying slows down if you have to factor security timings. Lets say the race was from door to door of where the mode starts from. So,that includes all checking in, all security and for this assume only a carry on. Flying just lost, or just because no better. With ALTO, if it is operated like Via, You get to the station, show someone your ticket and ID and then board the train. You spend more time walking from Front St to the place where you show your ticket than the rest. That cuts the time down. Now,you can bring your lunch, your water bottle, or even that special beverage for when you arrive to share with colleagues.

If only we can get Canada on board with the idea of ekiben.

 

[picard102]

Flying slows down if you have to factor security timings. Lets say the race was from door to door of where the mode starts from. So,that includes all checking in, all security and for this assume only a carry on. Flying just lost, or just because no better. With ALTO, if it is operated like Via, You get to the station, show someone your ticket and ID and then board the train. You spend more time walking from Front St to the place where you show your ticket than the rest. That cuts the time down. Now,you can bring your lunch, your water bottle, or even that special beverage for when you arrive to share with colleagues. Oh, and lets not forget winter. Planes get delayed or even canceled due to storms. Rail can keep going 'track speed' depending on how the signalling works. ALTO will kill flying for those doing along the ALTO route.This means though that it opens up those slots at the airport. That means more flights for Canadian and international destinations.

Yes the case for ALTO being able to take business travelers from air has to do a lot of math, and adding on this and that, to make sense.
I'm not sure who this mythical train traveler is who lives next to the station, will arrive seconds before the train leaves, and has their meetings at the station on the other end.

Trains do get cancelled due to snow storms as well.

 

[zang]

Yes the case for ALTO being able to take business travelers from air has to do a lot of math, and adding on this and that, to make sense.
I'm not sure who this mythical train traveler is who lives next to the station, will arrive seconds before the train leaves, and has their meetings at the station on the other end.

Unlike other places (even the UK), we don't have a culture where taking the train is considered "normal" for a business person. Like how so many upper middle class suburbanites view public transit, it still holds an air of "Ew, but why would you if you could take a plane/car?". Unless it's priced and seated like business class, I don't see a Alto taking anywhere close to much money and ridership away from air travel as it will Via.

 

[TerryJohnson]

Citizens coalition pitches alternative to Alto high-speed rail

Creating dedicated passenger rail tracks along the existing Via Rail corridor could allow trains to travel up to 220km/h.

www.thewhig.com

I think this article is refering to this group/idea: https://beyondalto.ca/

Can't recall if it has been posted here yet.

A few quick thoughts:
- They don't have a detailed map. This is as close as they come:

View attachment 731106
- They know it's very difficult and they don't want to create NIMBY reaction.
- CEO of Alto in that Star article already explained:

Their whole presentation is on Youtube:

-- see also the comments from Michael Schabas in the chat panel.

This looks like a group of people trying to be constructive--the point about synergy with 401 works is quite smart, and could go further to create safe wildlife crossings of 401--but there are probably many good reasons why railway professionals didn't advance this kind of idea over the past decade, including that its missing some key problems, a few of the most obvious ones in my mind are:

• Nobody would build a new railway that was totally dependent on tilting trains to fulfil its requirements.
• A new alignment even for 200 km/h would probably be 4.5 km+ radius for comfort and future-proofing.
• Safe horizontal separation from 401 would add 100m to the existing highway footprint at minimum and that extra width is at best someone's farm, some of it environmentally sensitive, and in some places housing.
• Fixing the route along 401 takes away the flexibility to avoid and mitigate those impacts that Alto has in its corridor consultation process.
• The extent of expropriation is not lower and might be far more disruptive during construction.
• Metrolinx trackage all the way from Union to Pickering would be an Achilles heel, just as it is today.
• Getting into Belleville without conflict with CN's yard would be interesting.
• The proposed station location in Kingston is on a curve. Any new station would ideally be straight with step-free boarding, and have vacant land around it for a transit hub.
• Some of the OnRoute locations along the southern side of the highway like Mallorytown and Morrisburg have to would be completely rebuilt.
• Getting from Coteau to Montreal is still challenging, and nothing was said about the route onward to Quebec city.

Also, extensive triple tracking tracks on the Kingston Sub and a Train Service Agreement that isn't made of butter would probably achieve 80% of the results this solution offers for 20% of the cost.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes the case for ALTO being able to take business travelers from air has to do a lot of math, and adding on this and that, to make sense.
I'm not sure who this mythical train traveler is who lives next to the station, will arrive seconds before the train leaves, and has their meetings at the station on the other end.

Trains do get cancelled due to snow storms as well.

Your location says Wilson Heights. Get from your home to a similar workplace in Ottawa and Montreal.Which would be easier for you, flying or ALTO?

 

[micheal_can]

Unlike other places (even the UK), we don't have a culture where taking the train is considered "normal" for a business person. Like how so many upper middle class suburbanites view public transit, it still holds an air of "Ew, but why would you if you could take a plane/car?". Unless it's priced and seated like business class, I don't see a Alto taking anywhere close to much money and ridership away from air travel as it will Via.

GO trains may want a word with you. True that buses may be for 'peasants', but higher order is more a level playing field. Top executives likely are the only ones that will keep saying 'ew'.

 

[picard102]

Your location says Wilson Heights. Get from your home to a similar workplace in Ottawa and Montreal.Which would be easier for you, flying or ALTO?

Flying. Pearson is obviously easier and faster to get to from North York, most of the day.

Even if I had to go to Billy Bishop, flying would still be the most time efficient method.

 

[just east of the creek]

I'm not sure "GO train fast" would move the dial enough to drive ridership enough, particularly away from flying. GO train frequency would help. That sounds very much like the HFR that was originally proposed.

Trying to meld HSR into either CN or CPKCs ROWs doesn't account for incompatibility of a lot of their alignments to high speed, and their apparent adamant opposition to electrification within their properties.

I was referring to ‘Go Train fast’ with reference to more of the closer regional destinations , but that could certainly be taken up a notch to their rated top speed given relatively longer distances, less stations, but needing improved track in many areas so Guelph for instance and I would add Peterbourgh to that list.

Anything else, and I would include St Kitts, Niagara, Brantford, London, Coburg etc and beyond should be HSR using some sort of an ALTO model, so new or adjoining ROW where it might make sense and separately elsewhere, but with stations certainly located in central areas - so Union for instance, Kingston as well, Gare Centrale Montreal. .

 

[StreetcarRider]

The whole point of Air Canada's participation in Cadence seems to be to reduce short-haul flights. They want to put passengers on Alto instead, to free up airport slots for more profitable long-haul business.

A random Wednesday in June 2026 shows Air Canada offering 25 direct flights from YTO to YUL, 16 direct flights from YTO to YOW, and five direct flights from YTO to YQB, for a combined 46 flights that day. If Alto gets built, and if it meets the promises about travel times and reliability, and if Air Canada does code-sharing with Alto for these journeys as they say is the plan, then don't expect Air Canada to still be running all of these 46 flights.

Anyway, the Alto materials talk about 20 to 30 trains per day in each direction between Toronto and Montreal. This proposal would seem capable of absorbing a lot of the passenger volumes Air Canada currently serves.