micheal_can
Senior Member
I am starting this thread to discuss the challenges of the park and what can be done to ease the congestion that has only gotten worse over the years.
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Algonquin Provincial Park
- Thread starter micheal_can
- Start date
innsertnamehere
Superstar
MTO has plans to eventually widen Highway 60 from Deerhurst to Highway 35.
Other than that, not much. It's a large park, it's never really going to be public transit serviceable in a significant way. At least not in our lifetimes.
Other than that, not much. It's a large park, it's never really going to be public transit serviceable in a significant way. At least not in our lifetimes.
Northern Light
Superstar
I'll solve it for you in one post.
White Duck Provincial Park.
A proposed park negotiated as part of the land claims settlement process with the Algonquins of Ontario.
Its located south of Algonquin Provincial Park.
The proposed size is 30,000 acres which means Its a Wilderness Park.
It will be a similar distance or closer to Toronto than Alqonquin Park is; and subject to offering camping and hiking will really help take the edge off that park.
We need other new/enlarged parks closer to the GTA, and particularly south-west thereof; but this will be huge.
The only question is when it will actually be up and running.
So far as I know the MNR is only beginning to look at the details this fall......so we're probably still at least 4-5 years out, and maybe a bit more.
****
MTO just needs all its engineers fired.
My answer is the right one.............more highway widening just induces more traffic and is highly destructive to a special place.
The big answer is finding other places for people to camp and commune with wilderness.
The secondary answer is diverting a small portion of traffic (mostly commuter, not camping or cottage) to trains/buses; its also having a shuttle bus within the park that connects campgrounds to grocery stores, hiking trails etc, so that people arrive at camp and choose to leave their car there, rather than shuttle around the park in it.
White Duck Provincial Park.
A proposed park negotiated as part of the land claims settlement process with the Algonquins of Ontario.
Its located south of Algonquin Provincial Park.
The proposed size is 30,000 acres which means Its a Wilderness Park.
It will be a similar distance or closer to Toronto than Alqonquin Park is; and subject to offering camping and hiking will really help take the edge off that park.
We need other new/enlarged parks closer to the GTA, and particularly south-west thereof; but this will be huge.
The only question is when it will actually be up and running.
So far as I know the MNR is only beginning to look at the details this fall......so we're probably still at least 4-5 years out, and maybe a bit more.
****
MTO just needs all its engineers fired.
My answer is the right one.............more highway widening just induces more traffic and is highly destructive to a special place.
The big answer is finding other places for people to camp and commune with wilderness.
The secondary answer is diverting a small portion of traffic (mostly commuter, not camping or cottage) to trains/buses; its also having a shuttle bus within the park that connects campgrounds to grocery stores, hiking trails etc, so that people arrive at camp and choose to leave their car there, rather than shuttle around the park in it.
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micheal_can
Senior Member
So, a bus that goes to everything along highway 60 that has decent frequency would never work?
micheal_can
Senior Member
There are many parks close to Toronto and some are feeling the pressure. One new park isn't going to do much.
Enlarging the park may work, but it still doesn't do anything for the continued congestion.
Should a rail lien to Algonquin be put in?
Should a transit service be started there?
smably
Senior Member
There is Parkbus service to Algonquin, which I've used a few times. It's good for what it is, but too expensive and infrequent to really make a dent in the amount of car traffic. And in general, I'm not sure that adding other transportation options would do anything to shift people away from driving to the park -- my guess is that we'd see an increase in the number of people visiting the park by making it more accessible to people who don't have easy access to a car (a good thing from an equity perspective), but I suspect that it would be hard to convince anyone who has the option of driving to switch modes without introducing car quotas or parking restrictions.
Northern Light
Superstar
30,000 acres is not 'one new park' like the others, it would be the largest park south of Algonquin, by far.
They haven't got to the stage of how much camping will be accomodated, but I would expect at least 2 locations, and in the range of 800 sites.
Some of that will just absorb latent demand; but some of it will take some steam out of Algonquin, which is what's needed.
Yes, more new/expanded parks will be needed. But this will make a material difference, for awhile.
No to rail through the park.
You're not going to shift very many campers/daytrippers by having rail, the cost recovery isn't there.
The key with rail is taking commuters out of the picture on highway 11/400 or 35/115.
The latter, hopefully will addressed through VIA HFR.
The former will require the extension of GO/other rail north to Orillia in the medium term; and later a bit further.
Reducing traffic in the park is about shuttling campers to trails/grocery via bus.
One could call that transit.
But it wouldn't really be a system.
It would be confined to Highway 60 with some possible exception for service that goes to Huntsville.
There would be the economics to make it work on weekends and holidays during the peak season (Victoria Day to Thanksgiving).
It wouldn't make any sense to run such a service off-season; and weekdays would be pretty marginal.
People won't leave their cars at campsite for a service that's less than hourly.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Any details on this? I haven't heard anything about such a new park, and google doesn't seem to return much. I certainly like the idea. It's still very small compared to Algonquin though.
Another option may be improving access to Algonquin. Perhaps a new road further north to increase access and spread out visitors. Highway 60 mostly only accesses the southern portion of the park, there is no real access for the vast majority of the park. Perhaps a new access highway from South River to Mattawa or something.
I largely agree that the proposed widening of 60 is a little over the top, as that stretch of 60 is pretty low traffic outside of a few peak weekends every year. The part they widened for the G8 was already a bit too much if you ask me, it's usually pretty dead when I drive on it, even during summer weekends. In the project's defense however it is entirely outside of the park and runs through an already fairly commercial stretch of the road.
Regarding transit, there are already a few park shuttles, and it's certainly an option. Speaking from experience using park shuttles in the US a few times though, it's not very attractive. Even when they are frequent they tend to add a ridiculous amount of travel time to accessing trails. The only one that I have seen work even close to half decently is Yosemite, and that's in a dense access area with a short, linear route through the Yosemite Valley. Algonquin is a huge area with many low volume destinations, it wouldn't work as well.
The reality of extremely peak-based activities like summer camping is that infrastructure is going to underserve it. It's tough to justify major infrastructure investments for events that only occur a few times a year.
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Northern Light
Superstar
This is the most recent, very small media mention of which I am aware:
Frontenac News - Sharbot Lake group floating new railway plan
The Sharbot Lake Business Group and the Rural Frontenac Tourism Group have both sprung into existence over the last couple of years. They developed out of some of the conversations that have taken place at semi-annual social gatherings of business people from Sharbot Lake and neighbouring...
From the above:
“Recognizing their stewardship of Algonquin traditional territory, the Algonquins of Ontario (AOO) represented locally by the Shabot Obaadjiwan First Nation, would also advocate for a transportation link that would enhance their economic development while protecting vulnerable ecological systems. At Crotch Lake, the AOO will soon be developing Whiteduck Provincial Park. It will be the second largest Provincial Park in Eastern Ontario after Algonquin.”
The broad strokes of the Land Claim deal are here:
You can see the approximate area of the new park here:
About equidistant from Toronto as Bon Echo
There's also an expansion of Lake St. Peter PP:
There's already access to the north end of the park off of #17
The challenge is that its much further from Toronto, I've been up there.
You're adding 2hrs 30m to your drive time, each way.
You might be able to shave a bit off by creating a diagonal road as you've indicated.
Though, I think based on terrain its a bit more likely to be from Trout Creek than South River; and I don't know that you could shave more than an hour w/that.
I think the better bet would be a new park, mostly using crown/land trust lands w/private land as required that is comparable or less distance to the GTA.
There are limited opportunities that aren't private-land focused, but there are some, as well as others where private land would still be relatively low cost.[/quote]
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micheal_can
Senior Member
The problem I am concerned with is in the actual park.
If some sort of transit actually ran to all trail heads and campground and ran frequently enough, it would mean less need to drive to the various places. You could have buses that go to certain campgrounds or certain trails and so forth. Parkbus could be integrated as well.
Northern Light
Superstar
I got that.
The role of the new park is to siphon off some of Algonquin's users thus easing congestion.
I've also indicated that I support a strategic shuttle service along the lines you're suggesting; though, I think @innsertnamehere has concurred with me that the niche for that is limited and it should not be expected to draw down congestion on a large scale.
'
lenaitch
Senior Member
I'm wondering what the OP means by congestion. If it is campsite/canoe route/trail, that speaks to capacity and can really only be addressed by opening up more of the park (not in favour) or, as mentioned, more public use spaces at other or new facilities. Keep in mind that, in addition to public use, a provincial park is also an ecological preserve. Algonquin has notoriety, but there are others, many of which are much less well known (whether they are sufficient for the growing population in southern Ontario is a question). Kawartha Highlands' at 37,500 and Queen Elizabeth II, 33,500ha; both south of Algonquin. How many have heard of these? Maybe they could have enhanced facilities.
Or does congestion refer to daytrippers driving through looking at the scenery, maybe or maybe not using (and paying for) park facilities? This is huge weekend problem this time of year with private car and charter bus 'leafpeepers', and I'm wonderiing if this is the question given the timing of the post. A reality is that the road is a provincial highway, not unlike the highways through Banff and Jasper. I used to enjoy a day trip ride on the bike this time of year but have come so close the death enough times that I no longer go (stopping dead in a live land over the brow of a hill to take a picture of the pretty leaves, or wandering absentmindedly on the roadway). I doubt this type of tourist would be diverted to shuttle buses, but at least if they were there would be fewer vehicles travelling 40kmh. Perhaps more roadside parking areas.
Some kind of transit/parkbus, if it was attractive at all, would only be attractive to tent campers; although I say this not knowing if Algonquin accommodates trailers and RVS
The MNRF has had their budget decimated over many years and many governments, and now that Ontario Parks has been hived off to the Ministry of Environment, Conservation and Parks, I doubt they are suddenly flush with cash.
Or does congestion refer to daytrippers driving through looking at the scenery, maybe or maybe not using (and paying for) park facilities? This is huge weekend problem this time of year with private car and charter bus 'leafpeepers', and I'm wonderiing if this is the question given the timing of the post. A reality is that the road is a provincial highway, not unlike the highways through Banff and Jasper. I used to enjoy a day trip ride on the bike this time of year but have come so close the death enough times that I no longer go (stopping dead in a live land over the brow of a hill to take a picture of the pretty leaves, or wandering absentmindedly on the roadway). I doubt this type of tourist would be diverted to shuttle buses, but at least if they were there would be fewer vehicles travelling 40kmh. Perhaps more roadside parking areas.
Some kind of transit/parkbus, if it was attractive at all, would only be attractive to tent campers; although I say this not knowing if Algonquin accommodates trailers and RVS
The MNRF has had their budget decimated over many years and many governments, and now that Ontario Parks has been hived off to the Ministry of Environment, Conservation and Parks, I doubt they are suddenly flush with cash.
afransen
Senior Member
Algonquin does have RV/trailer campsites. I stayed at one just this summer (Pog Lake).
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Northern Light
Superstar
Kawartha is an operating park. QE2 is not.
I can't remember now which one of those 2, but when Harris created them at least one they expressly promised would stay wild (by which they meant no park roads, no car camping etc.)
I think either could reasonably accommodate car camping at its periphery, though, in the spirit of any original deal, I'd be happy to see that tied to a modest park expansion, add 1,000ha (2500 acres) expressly to serve as the campground without touching the original park.
QE2 has the Ganaraska Trail through it, so that might be the more logical choice you wouldn't need to build a lot of new trail to serve car campers.
The absence of car camping, , the fact QE2 is considered non-operating; and Kawatha Highlands not even having an official hiking trail would limit current interest. You have to be a bit hardcore for these parks!