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2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

No mainstream party will touch the Catholic Board (or at least say so publically).

The issue with French Immersion is finding teachers. There just aren't enough of them.
I think there's a conflation between school uniforms and academic performance that is not substantiated by the facts.

The problem with French Immersion isn't to do with anything less in the public system v. the Catholic, it's nation-wide, and at least partly due to how poorly French Immersion teachers are paid and supported in the system. I know from second-hand experience, and one who couldn't handle the politics of teaching French, (it's the administration, not the students) and she became a librarian in the system instead. Here's some review:
[...]
Studin asserts that French Immersion is an important part of supporting official bilingualism, but that was never the original intention of the program. When the “Mothers of Immersion,” Murielle Parks, Olga Melikoff and Valerie Neal established French Immersion in 1965, their goal was to help Anglophone children living in a mostly French speaking province become better at French. They weren’t trying to produce students who were bilingual.

That’s just as well, because in most situations French Immersion isn’t very effective at creating bilingual citizens. While data is scarce, research shows that fewer than 20 per cent of French Immersion students graduate high school with proficiency in French. Partly because the vast majority of students who enter French Immersion programs leave the program long before that.

Can a program that fails to meet the needs of so many students be considered successful? And if French Immersion is an effective way of promoting bilingualism, then why, after 40 years of exponential growth in French Immersion programs across the country, is the number of bilingual Canadians dropping?

So, if French Immersion isn’t very effective at teaching students French, why is it so popular? The unsettling answer may lie in the fact that French Immersion classrooms don’t reflect the diversity of our multicultural society.

French Immersion classrooms have more students from wealthier families, more girls and fewer students who need special education support than the average English speaking classroom. Some school boards also report that there are more white and more native English-speaking students in French Immersion classes than in English speaking classrooms.

French Immersion programs are further hampered by a significant shortage of qualified teachers. In 2017 the Halton Catholic District School Board almost cancelled their early French Immersion program explaining, “there is a French Teacher staffing crisis across the province of Ontario.”

Trustees at the Waterloo Region District School Board have called on the province to increase the number of qualified French Immersion teachers and former Education Minister Mitzie Hunter agreed that there are “ … challenges with teacher supply.” Surely, a lack of qualified teachers should be a concern for parents considering French Immersion.

In spite of these problems, the demand for French immersion places across Canada grows at about 12 per cent each year. This rapid growth creates headaches for school boards, stretching scarce resources even further and forcing difficult decisions. Boards employ a variety of solutions, but all of them have enormous consequences for non-French Immersion students.
[...]
However, the biggest consequence of French Immersion for our education system is the “ghettoizing” of English language schools. French Immersion programs siphon engaged families and high performing students away from their neighbourhood schools. These are the families and students that are desperately needed to contribute to neighbourhood schools, ensuring that the education in those schools is as good as possible for all students.

French Immersion, like any education program, has positives and negatives, but the combination of those negatives with high demand is harming the education of all students.

Unfortunately, advocates of French Immersion persist in defending the program at all costs and insisting there are no problems. Perhaps instead, they could agree that we have some work to do to make French Immersion more effective and inclusive, and in doing so, improve our education system for all students.

Andrew Campbell is an educator and writer. He has taught in the public school system in Ontario for over 25 years, as well as two years in Kuwait. He is currently a Grade 5 teacher in Brantford, Ontario.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...needs-to-be-more-effective-and-inclusive.html
 
I think the ON gov't, whomever they are need to deal with the reasons WHY parents wants a separate school board, and for that matter pursue specialist programs like French Immersion for their kids. IMO, us parents seek these options for our kids because we want to avoid the disruptive students from poorer backgrounds, broken families or with intellectual disabilities and instead wish to surround our kids with like minded, like abled and academically high performing students, teachers and resources.

When my kids were young we seriously considered Catholic school... not because we're ardent RCs, but to get away from those students that are disruptive or counter to our kids' educational success. It's not nice, but it's a tough world out there, and parents will do what they have to. So, if you want to merge the school boards without rebellion, you need to eliminate the reason parents send their kids to the separate boards. Make Ontario public schools top grade, and you can merge without much issue.


I'm sorry but this is complete foolery.

I went through Catholic school from K-12 and let me tell you, that there is no difference between the number of "trouble" students between the Catholic and public school systems.
Catholics can be fucked up people too, just like everybody else. They ain't magic. In fact, they may be even more fucked up than everybody else because of the importance of forgiveness of sins, etc. Anyone who thinks the Catholic school system is some sort of magic pedagogical paradise is extremely ignorant of the reality.

I'm glad you didn't bother going out of your way to put them in a different school system...it would have been a waste of your time.

Believe me, the schools I went to were just as interesting as any public ones in the same neighbourhoods.
 
On the issue of separate schools being merged w/the public system, this goes back over a decade at least to the previous leader of the Greens through several runs.

Its always been a plank of theirs for which I have appreciation.

I can't speak to "always" but it sure has been a part of party policy during my years there (2003-2016). We had quite the interesting debate about it at an EDA campaign meeting during the last provincial election. It ended up being me, arguing for, debating against a lawyer, arguing against. While he was still very much a Catholic, I wasn't, so it got interesting and almost heated. But then we agreed to disagree (besides it was official party policy so too bad for Mr Lawyer) and moved on to beers and strategy.

Aaaaaanyway, needs to be done because it's too logical and efficient not to be done.
 
Quebec and Newfoundland secularized 20 years ago. I don’t know what the debates were like at the time, but eliminating this obsolete special treatment for Catholics is long overdue.

Sure is and is a way better idea than that idiocy that Tory once had as policy when he was PC leader.
 
Quebec still has separate schools going back to its roots, one for English (assumed to be Anglicans or Protestants) and one for French (Catholics). It's the same reason Ontario had two school boards, to appease the French and promote a new stronger BNA, due to fear of the growing power of the USA to the south.

Newfoundland, as a English colony starting in 1583 is far older than Ontario/Upper Canada (founded 1791), and had longstanding British roots without a French population to be accommodated. I can't speak for religious schooling in Nfld, was it run by the Anglicans?

But Ontario doesn't just have two school boards if you consider language. In fact, there are French public and Catholic boards. (And supposedly one English protestant one in Penatanguishene...???)

In Newfoundland religion was for a long time a Big Deal, particularly divisions thereof. Interestingly, formerly religious-now-public schools still have names like Holy Heart of Mary, Brother Rice, or Gonzaga.

Anyway, I don't quite understand why doing away with religious schooling is as controversial as it is in Ontario, but we're at least an election cycle away from even starting to address it.
 
It's filled with highly educated professionals who see themselves as too educated to vote Conservative (especially with Ford leading them) and too bourgeois to vote NDP.

There's probably no riding in Ontario, besides maybe University-Rosedale, that have more of "the elites and the establishment" as Ford calls them. They're not going to vote for a party led by a crude right-wing populist.

Elitist arrogance and hubris aside, a plurality of St Paul's does vote Conservative. It's bluer than many other districts of the 416. (I'll post the map later, fact checkers!). It wouldn't take much per a Liberal implosion to flip it blue. Especially with the boundaries redrawn as they are.
 
It's bizarre to me that St Paul's would stay Liberal since it skews whiter and wealthier. Based on maps of past election results, St Paul's has a formidable zone of blue postal codes contained in it.
With it being my riding, I can personally attest that the Liberals could run Pol Pot in St Pauls and still get elected.

Some conservative ridings are the same. They'll vote PC no matter what, even if demographically, they aren't very different from a St. Pauls. (I am thinking of Thornhill in specific)
 
The problem with French Immersion isn't to do with anything less in the public system v. the Catholic, it's nation-wide, and at least partly due to how poorly French Immersion teachers are paid and supported in the system. I know from second-hand experience, and one who couldn't handle the politics of teaching French, (it's the administration, not the students) and she became a librarian in the system instead. Here's some review:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...needs-to-be-more-effective-and-inclusive.html
I think people like French Immersion due to the lack of special needs kids and otherwise slow learners.
 
I'm sorry but this is complete foolery.

I went through Catholic school from K-12 and let me tell you, that there is no difference between the number of "trouble" students between the Catholic and public school systems.
Catholics can be fucked up people too, just like everybody else. They ain't magic. In fact, they may be even more fucked up than everybody else because of the importance of forgiveness of sins, etc. Anyone who thinks the Catholic school system is some sort of magic pedagogical paradise is extremely ignorant of the reality.

I'm glad you didn't bother going out of your way to put them in a different school system...it would have been a waste of your time.

Believe me, the schools I went to were just as interesting as any public ones in the same neighbourhoods.
It is not so much about the schools not having trouble students. Growing up around Midtown, let me tell you there were plenty of trouble kids at Northern, North Toronto, Forest Hill , Lawrence Park or Leaside. Kids will be kids, wherever. Even in wealthier neighbourhoods.

The question is more about the parents of the kids, and the type of support they can offer in terms of extra-curricular and after-school activities, parent-teacher support, after school study-groups, fundraisers, donations, volunteering and so forth. In this case, a rising tide lifts all boats, and even if you were a poorer student going to one of these schools, you benefited from the network of support from your classmates parents.

So, if French-immersion schools are in high demand because wealthier, educated parents are self-selecting to send their kids there (even if just for as simple and crude a reason as "to segregate my kid from problem students") then those French-immersion schools are benefiting from the aggregate advantage of that more valuable network of support (including strong support of extra-curriculars). The numbers support this, as French-immersion schools are currently bursting at the seams from applicants. It has in effect, attained some of the perks of sending your child to private school, while being within the public school system.

@steveintoronto said that French-immersion teachers are poorly paid. That might be true historically, but it was my impression that today they are being paid very well compared to non-immersion teachers. Would be nice to attach some sort of validation to either statement.
 
Elitist arrogance and hubris aside, a plurality of St Paul's does vote Conservative. It's bluer than many other districts of the 416. (I'll post the map later, fact checkers!). It wouldn't take much per a Liberal implosion to flip it blue. Especially with the boundaries redrawn as they are.

But does it vote *Ford* Conservative? That's the critical point here--if it were Christine Elliott leading the party, it might be different (and indeed, it was rumoured pre-Newmarket that she'd be running here)

In the 2014 Mayoral race, Doug Ford got less than 12% total in the St. Paul's wards. John Tory got about fifty percentage points more than that.
 
I wonder what drove Wynne to run again or frankly the Liberals to not turn on their own leader.

Did she think she could explain to people, why she is actually a great premier even after getting a 12% approval rating?

With Ford Being dominant in the 905 and the NDP in other parts of the Province, Wynne Will leave her party in shambles.

Perhaps she deserves it because I can only think of blinding hubris for a person to think they could win an election again.
 

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