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160kph Battery Train Technology In GTHA (Electrification Solution for Kitchener Line)

Are you proposing/speculating that our Class 1 rail carriers will electrify their networks, or at least the part in the GTA through some form of motive power transfer yards on the periphery? Where's the money going to come from for this?
No -- for freight sections -- I only mention because "someday" -- climate legislation will probably eventually force CN and CP to electrify their freight before year 2100. Could be 2030, could be 2040, could be 2100. But for the purposes of my post, let's not depend on that happening.
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For the purposes of my other earlier major posts (for the forseeable future) catenary only Metrolinx owned tracks and Metrolinx owned yards.

e.g. This is a possible preferred scenario:
1. Build all catenary in the existing electrification limits of the existing GO Expansion Business Plan.
2. Use regular EMU fleet
3. Use battery trains (instead of just dual modes) to more quickly provide extend EMU routes onto non-Metrolinx owned track.

In another perspectively, battery trains could metaphorically be viewed as a Phase 2 of GO Expansion. Battery trains also double as EMUs (non-battery trains), can be redirected onto other legs (the same battery train used for Kitchener can also be used for Hamilton, or Bowmanville extension) to keep fleets a more consistent in type and performance.

Whatever happens beyond (e.g. future gradual freight electrification) does not make battery trains obsolete. This is the point of the subsequent post. Even if it someday begins before 2100, Canada's freight train network doesn't electrify within the timespan of the lifetime of a fleet purchase.
 
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Canada's freight network will NEVER employ catenary. It's costing nearly $2 billion to electrify RER's 200km system and with CN/CP we are talking tens of thousands of km of track in far more inhospitable climates and terrain than Toronto. We are literally talking hundreds of billions of dollars and decades to build...…….we have neither the money nor the time to decarbonize that kind of monstrous network. The upkeep alone would be a fortune.

For larger rail transport {freight and passenger},, air, and sea travel hydrogen is the ONLY option. Hydrogen is the energy alternative that can save this planet as it offers the universal flexibility of oil/diesel without the emissions. Perhaps in 60 or 70 years battery technology will have advanced enough to make it viable in some of those applications but of course we don't have 60 or 70 years but rather 20 at the very most.
 
Canada's freight network will NEVER employ catenary without being forced to.
Fixed that for you.

It could happen by year 2100, forced by government, or unaffordable costs (climate change legislation...), etc. Not something we'll easily predict in near term. Even if catenary gets built, doesn't have to be continuous -- who knows, it could be battery/trimode freight trains with sections of catenary to permit recharge-on-the-fly and railyard charging. Inverter and paralleling stations are getting cheaper; the electronics for feeding 25 kilovolts are getting much more compact than they used to 50 years ago. If they're only charging one freight train passing at a time, then the electric infrastructure is tiny (less than the size of a single suburban house lot for all the electricity power that particular catenary segment requires). Would probably be one-tenth the cost that you claim, once the right tri-mode locomotives are mature enough.
 
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Fixed that for you.

It could happen by year 2100. Not something we'll predict. Doesn't have to be continuous -- who knows, it could be battery/trimode freight trains with sections of catenary to permit recharge-on-the-fly and railyard charging. Inverter and paralleling stations are getting cheaper; the electronics for feeding 25 kilovolts are getting much more compact than they used to 50 years ago. If they're only charging one freight train passing at a time, then the electric infrastructure is tiny (less than the size of a single suburban house lot for all the electricity power that particular catenary segment requires). Would probably be one-tenth the cost that you claim, once the right tri-mode locomotives are mature enough.

Since we're kinda off topic already...

Small scale nuclear would be well suited for freight purposes. Traction power would need to be distributed but a power car with an RITM-200 would be well scaled for a 2km long freight trains. Refueling every 7 years would make it a heavy maintenance job. Russian Icebreakers are going to be running them; the reactor was designed specifically for rolling seas and frequent bumps.
 
Not taking a position on modes of power one way or the other, but per the RAC, 42,000km of track. I wonder how the battery technology will handle trains in the order of 15,000 tons.
I get the enthusiasm, I honestly do, but forcing companies into bankruptcy solves nothing. As for government footing the bill, billions for transportation, billions for pharmacare, billions to get rid of lead plumbing, and the list goes on.
Reducing GHG is obviously desirable. Eliminating it is unrealistic unless we collectively agree to go back to a mid-1880s society. And where's all that electricity going to come from? Nuclear is great except when it's in your neighbourhood and come at great cost. Buying from Quebec or Manitoba may help, but come with a cost as well. Wind and solar can't even come close to fill the gap. Maybe by then someone will have perfected nuclear fusion.
 
Much ado about nothing. It wouldn’t drive freight lines to bankruptcy.

(It’s NOT even boiling a frog at all)

If you see what I mentioned above, year 2100 is a lot of time for freight lines to electrify. It would begin in a future era (maybe beyond our lifetimes) where it’s practical. Possibly only 1/10th of the lines need catenary, if you use strategic sections, combined with tri-mode locomotives like battery freight locomotives.

USA is about to start battery-electric freight trains! And BNSF begin trials shortly!

Read my lips: United States of America!

Using battery freight trains!

Combine one diesel and one battery (two locomotives), and you save 15% of your diesel costs, and pollute less. Even when hauling the dead weight around, the numbers actually works out. They’re doing it on their own economic accord!

"Adding even one battery-powered locomotive to the train could reduce the consist’s total fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, according to Alan Hamilton, general manager of systems engineering at GE Transportation. Given that diesel prices globally have hovered between $2 to $4 per gallon for most of the last decade, an operator could save tens of thousands of dollars per consist on its annual fuel bill. “It’s a big deal,” Hamilton says. “Fuel costs are typically the largest component in a rail operator’s costs.”

At that point, you only need a indirect forcing (like simply high carbon taxes, or high diesel cost, or other disincentive, which YOU may or maybe not agree with BUT that is besides the point) and they’ll just do so on their own accord, thanks to such indirect forces. One thing after another, by 2100, the freights may be using 90%-98% less fuel with just 1%-5% catenary by mainline length.

With 0% catenary, battery can still save diesel.

A theoretical multi-decade cheap freight electrification plan:
  • You begin by adding a battery locomotive to the existing diesel freight consist. Cheap.
    15% savings in diesel.
  • Next decade, you add tiny bits of catenary at the steeper grades (high power) and key sections to ease load on diesel and batteries.
    30% savings in diesel.
  • Then a future decade, lengthen catenary for more inflight-refueling (recharging on the fly) along sections that has higher-power use in historical analytics.
    50% savings in diesel.
  • Then a future decade, your freight network is 1% to 5% catenary, and battery tech is good
    90%-98% savings in diesel.
(replace numbers with different estimates, but you get the idea of the “progression”)
See....cheap.

Heck, if you wanted to take it easy on the freight companies, capital at mere tens to hundred millions dollars per year in a “slow electrify” (far less than one billion per year), even if laggardly beginning 2050 and end 2100. I bet it even with Invisible Hand or market forces alone, it will happens faster than that. But I just give a dumbfoundedly conservative slow scenario example. They already currently spend way more than that per year in rail improvements now. The cost of continuing to use diesel will probably continually increase over the century in various ways.

So not an edict to freight companies to stop using fuels, but simply slowly making it cheaper to use other methods than diesel, via a wide variety of government-initiated techniques. Theoretically, it can even be externally forced (e.g. Europe putting a tax on goods transported by diesel in other countries), so we may not even need our government to do the “forcing” of the economics for the business case of gradual freight electrification. Who knows? You may or may not agree with whatever the world dishes, but it’s all, combined, but guaranteed to make diesel costly by 2100 even without Canada lifting a finger. (We should “help along”, though).

That’s what I meant by “force” — economic forces included.

I suspect you took issue to my phraseology “forcing the freights”, when it’s far less nefarious and more mundane economics. Fun sidetrack, and all but almost guaranteed to happen.

Again, much ado about nothing, because I threw a generous number example out there (“2100”). And I didn’t put it to that, even. Feel free to replace the number with 2150 or 2200, or panic rush completion to 2040, but the Canadian freights aren’t going to be using 100% diesel in Year One Million, anyway... (Just throwing out a “sky is blue” obvious statement). The trend will be towards decreased diesel %. Realistically it will happen faster, because of the above.

IMHO, the faster this tech matures, the better.
 
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Not taking a position on modes of power one way or the other, but per the RAC, 42,000km of track. I wonder how the battery technology will handle trains in the order of 15,000 tons.
I get the enthusiasm, I honestly do, but forcing companies into bankruptcy solves nothing. As for government footing the bill, billions for transportation, billions for pharmacare, billions to get rid of lead plumbing, and the list goes on.
Reducing GHG is obviously desirable. Eliminating it is unrealistic unless we collectively agree to go back to a mid-1880s society. And where's all that electricity going to come from? Nuclear is great except when it's in your neighbourhood and come at great cost. Buying from Quebec or Manitoba may help, but come with a cost as well. Wind and solar can't even come close to fill the gap. Maybe by then someone will have perfected nuclear fusion.
How about geothermal? Just drill pipes deep into the Earth and that's all.
 
How about geothermal? Just drill pipes deep into the Earth and that's all.
So many ways to generate electricity. The mechanism to transfer stationary geothermal energy to a train is probably via an intermediate mechanism such as catenary, hydrogen or battery ;)

Geothermal -> Electricity -> Catenary -> Train
 
So let's say that Ottawa has a cool $200 billion lying around and CN & CP relent and agree to catenary trains and to chip in a good portion of money to make it all happen and could even get it done by 2100 and even most by 2080. Such a proposal would be an unconscionable dereliction of responsibility. The world doesn't have 60 to 80 years to gradually ween ourselves off fossil fuels.

We need to decarbonize as fast as possible and this whole planet doesn't even have 30 years to do it. There must be a metamorphic change in our energy supply over the next 20 years if we are stave off an environmental catastrophe. We are well beyond the point of living on borrowed time. There is a reason why huge sums are being spent to develop hydrogen planes, long distance trains, transport trucks boats, ships, agricultural mechanics, docking facilities and more......……………..it is the ONLY option we have. Batteries are an option for suburban trains, urban buses, and cars but for everything else they are useless.

Time is a luxury this planet no longer has and waiting 80 years or more to bring catenary to every last corner of the planet will truly seal our fate. Forget the money {which we don't have anyway}, catenary is not even remotely optional because what scientists have been warning about for decades is NOW upon us which is exactly why we need to transform NOW.
 
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^ If you want to de-carbonize in 20 years, you would need to change the energy production balance. Catenary vs hydrogen is a secondary question, because fossil fuels remain the source of > 50% of energy humans use today. Commercial hydrogen is mostly produced from natural gas today, and thus contributes to greenhouse emission. Electricity, too (natural gas plants). Even if a particular load of electricity is produced by solar / wind / nuclear / geothermal etc, the electricity is still taken out of the common pool, and some extra natural gas will be burnt to compensate.

When the energy balance shifts, so the bulk is produced without greenhouse emission, and only niche applications for fossil fuels remain such as diesel trains and airplanes, then it will make sense to decide how to efficiently switch those applications into now-abundant green energy.

And btw, the panicked language of saving the planet kind of muddies the water. The planet will surely survive the temperature rising by 2 degrees or 5 degrees, it will not catch fire and the volcanoes will not start erupting all over the place. The planet has survived much greater challenges over its 4.5 billion years of existence, and barely noticed. The environment for humans will become much less comfortable if the climate change isn't reversed, that's the accurate description of the problem we are trying to address in this case.
 
Okay, we've opened a Pandora's Box here.

On one side, we've got people who say NEVER going to electrify, and on the other side, we've got people who say we PANIC immediately. And all those in-betweens.
I do prefer far faster than 2100, but I'm trying to write in a catchall manner -- hard to satisfy all parties. But pick a date. The electrification journey is happening anyway.

Regardless of disparity in opinion of how rapidly we need to decarbonize and to what extent -- the bottom line is it is actually rapidly becoming economical to electrify.
 
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Okay, we've opened a Pandora's Box here.

On one side, we've got people who say NEVER going to electrify, and on the other side, we've got people who say we PANIC immediately. And all those in-betweens.
I do prefer far faster than 2100, but I'm trying to write in a catchall manner -- hard to satisfy all parties. But pick a date. The electrification journey is happening anyway.

Regardless of disparity in opinion of how rapidly we need to decarbonize and to what extent -- the bottom line is it is actually rapidly becoming economical to electrify.

The main purpose of electrifying services like GO / RER in the short term is not reducing the GHG from the trains themselves. In the short term, electricity or hydrogen will still come with GHG emission.

There are many other benefits of such electrification:
- Better acceleration profiles lead to better travel times, leading to a more competitive service, leading to less cars on the roads, thus reducing the GHG emission indirectly.
- Less local pollution from the trains.
- Less noise.

In the longer term, that can have a collateral effect of reducing the GHG emission from the trains as well. Once enough green energy is available, the train system will be fully ready to utilize it. But, that's not the primary motivation right now.
 
Time to bump this baby up.

i am pro-catenary but battery trains are a last mile solution for freight lines / Hamilton / Bowmanville / Brampton / Bolton / etc. Trains can recharge in motion under urban catenary, and then be able to service beyond catenary.

Again, it does not have to be part of the first fleet purchase, but an option much cheaper than hydrogen infrastructure.

With lithium batteries continuing to fall in prices and an actual Metrolinx lithium battery farm becoming the uninterruptible power supply for Eglinton Crosstown, this is actual happenings....in a sense.
 
I wonder what kind of travel time improvement this could yield for Kitchener trains. The GO business case only lays out one minute's worth of savings from Kitchener to Union (from 120 min to 119 min) under their current RER plans, which is very disappointing, as VIA can do the trip in 96 min currently.
If we have catenary and double tracking west of Georgetown, I'd hope for at least one 'fast' trip to Union a day.
Also, catenary+battery could be helpful for trips from Cambridge through Guelph, if that's found to be feasible.
One can dream
 
I wonder what kind of travel time improvement this could yield for Kitchener trains. The GO business case only lays out one minute's worth of savings from Kitchener to Union (from 120 min to 119 min) under their current RER plans, which is very disappointing, as VIA can do the trip in 96 min currently.
If we have catenary and double tracking west of Georgetown, I'd hope for at least one 'fast' trip to Union a day.
Also, catenary+battery could be helpful for trips from Cambridge through Guelph, if that's found to be feasible.
One can dream

The travel times in their business case are not even remotely trustworthy. They projected a 119-minute travel times in their multi-billion-dollar plan, and yet by September 2019 with only relatively minor track upgrades, GO had already improved the travel times to 106 minutes for express trains and 118/116 minutes for locals (peak/off-peak). In the current pandemic schedule, lower passenger volumes and continued track upgrades have further dropped the local train travel time to 109 minutes. My guess is that when express service returns, it will be around 100 minutes flat. VIA should be able to achieve about 90.

The primary advantage of conventional electric trains over diesel trains is that they have a vastly better power-to-weight ratio due to not needing to carry their fuel. Battery-electric trains do not share this advantage.
 

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