Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Every indication has been the curve is west of Renforth station (along Explorer). We've discussed this before. See this post from 2022: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...extension-airport-segment.34550/#post-1884598

I'll bring forward the image.

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Looking at this now, I wonder if they'll re-consider the Pearson connection design after learnings from line's 5 and 6. Creating a terminating platform to the North of the line 5 tracks and run the airport line as either a shuttle or in/out extension. A gentler curve to follow renforth (either as a separate bridge or taking lanes from renforth), would be cheaper to construct and perhaps faster and more reliable. It does add a transfer, but with the transitway stop serving a bunch of miway and GO routes, it will be a popular transfer spot anyway.
 
Every indication has been the curve is west of Renforth station (along Explorer). We've discussed this before. See this post from 2022: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...extension-airport-segment.34550/#post-1884598

I'll bring forward the image.

View attachment 730932

I wouldn't say that "every" indication was that the curve was on Explorer. Here is a snippit from the 2020 Environmental Project Report Addendum Design Plates showing the tracks turning north on Commerce blvd itself.

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Definitely agreed that extending the line and heading North on Explorer is a much better decision as it allows for a station deeper in the Matheson business area. But it's definitely not set in stone on the actual alignment that is going to be used for this section.
 
The views from the train are going to be stunning, especially in the fall. Line 5 really will be a demonstration of all the machinations of LRT: at surface, underground, and elevated.
Technically, it already is given the westernmost stretch by Mount Dennis is elevated. ;)
 
I wouldn't say that "every" indication was that the curve was on Explorer. Here is a snippit from the 2020 Environmental Project Report Addendum Design Plates showing the tracks turning north on Commerce blvd itself.
If you want to go that far back, don't forget the eight options in the 2010 Transit Project Assessment Summary - all of which aren't as far west.

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If you want to go that far back, don't forget the eight options in the 2010 Transit Project Assessment Summary - all of which aren't as far west.

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Going back 6 years to the 2020 Environmental Project Report (EPR) for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension is definitely not the same as going back 16 years to 2010 when the western LRT was supposed to be on the surface and the main Crosstown line was not even under construction. I believe even the Mississauga Transitway was only beginning construction at that time.

The EPR Design Plates are still linked in the Metrolinx Resources page for the ECWE and therefore still relevant to this project. As you had pointed out, that plan to turn north at Commerce has since been modified to instead follow Explorer drive. Though all this conversation is still just speculation until we get the formal report regarding the Airport extension. They still may choose to modify the alignment.
 
Going back 6 years to the 2020 Environmental Project Report (EPR) for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension is definitely not the same as going back 16 years to 2010 when the western LRT was supposed to be on the surface and the main Crosstown line was not even under construction. I believe even the Mississauga Transitway was only beginning construction at that time.
I'm not sure what the year has to do with interest in historic alignments. And you do have to go back to 2010 for some materials not presented in the 2020 update (EPR Addendum) - such as the methodology behind the transport demand modelling, such as eastbound AM peak-hour ridership of 0 approaching Renforth (I'd think that's mostly an artifact of a lack of residential trip generators around the airport, and not including end-of-shift ridership in AM peak - looks like the peak is up to 225 in the 2020 EPR Addendum).

An aside, I haven't looked at the 2041 predicted ridership closely before in the 2020 Addendum. I'm surprised the 2041 westbound AM peak ridership in the 2020 EPR Addendum estimate arriving at Pearson (10-stop extension) is only 550 people for the current - up only 50 from 500 for the 2031 ridership in the 2010 EPR (18-stop extension).

Eastbound 2041 AM peak-hour ridership at Renforth (once the Pearson extension is completed) is still very disappointing, at a bit less than 500 people (compared to 400 for 2031 in the 2010 EPR).

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Well this is years from now, so hopefully by that time the LRT will operate with 3-car trains every 2 minutes instead of 2-car trains every 5 minutes.
I can basically guarantee you 2 minute headways on surface running LRT (tram) will never happen in a suburban GTA context.

Also for reference, a trip from North York Centre to Union takes 40 minutes including wait times, and walking down to platform. If we're expecting 10 minutes walking catchment area, that's 50 minutes right there for 14 km, not including the time it takes to walk to work from Union, maybe another 10 minutes, so 60 minutes.

If you're doing Hurontario@Eglinton just to Cedarvale, you'd be looking at 60 minutes, plus 10 minutes to walk to station, plus 10 minutes to get to office ... 80 minutes. And what are the chances someone works near Cedarvale station?

This is also assuming no detour up to Pearson. Knowing how badly Metrolinx screwed up the hopes of eastward expansion past Kennedy, I doubt they would protect for a branch line of Line 5 west of Renforth.
 
I'm not sure what the year has to do with interest in historic alignments. And you do have to go back to 2010 for some materials not presented in the 2020 update (EPR Addendum) - such as the methodology behind the transport demand modelling, such as eastbound AM peak-hour ridership of 0 approaching Renforth (I'd think that's mostly an artifact of a lack of residential trip generators around the airport, and not including end-of-shift ridership in AM peak - looks like the peak is up to 225 in the 2020 EPR Addendum).

An aside, I haven't looked at the 2041 predicted ridership closely before in the 2020 Addendum. I'm surprised the 2041 westbound AM peak ridership in the 2020 EPR Addendum estimate arriving at Pearson (10-stop extension) is only 550 people for the current - up only 50 from 500 for the 2031 ridership in the 2010 EPR (18-stop extension).

Eastbound 2041 AM peak-hour ridership at Renforth (once the Pearson extension is completed) is still very disappointing, at a bit less than 500 people (compared to 400 for 2031 in the 2010 EPR).

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It would be interesting to see this refreshed now that the Kennedy to Mt Dennis section is opened and we have real-world data to compare to the estimates. When do we expect good data to be gathered for Line 5?

Anecdotally, I've read in the Line 5 thread that the 2-car trains are running fairly packed during rush hour with a headway of around 4 minutes. Doing the math gives us a pphpd of 4,500 (300 passengers per train x 15 trains per hour) which is very close to what was originally expected.
 
It would be interesting to see this refreshed now that the Kennedy to Mt Dennis section is opened and we have real-world data to compare to the estimates. When do we expect good data to be gathered for Line 5?
From the people at the TTC's planning department, you can get a pretty good idea about how people's habits have changed at the 6 month mark after a major service change is introduced.

Now that said, you don't want to do counts in the summer time when people are vacationing. So early September seems as good as a point as any.

Dan
 
I can basically guarantee you 2 minute headways on surface running LRT (tram) will never happen in a suburban GTA context.

Also for reference, a trip from North York Centre to Union takes 40 minutes including wait times, and walking down to platform. If we're expecting 10 minutes walking catchment area, that's 50 minutes right there for 14 km, not including the time it takes to walk to work from Union, maybe another 10 minutes, so 60 minutes.

If you're doing Hurontario@Eglinton just to Cedarvale, you'd be looking at 60 minutes, plus 10 minutes to walk to station, plus 10 minutes to get to office ... 80 minutes. And what are the chances someone works near Cedarvale station?

This is also assuming no detour up to Pearson. Knowing how badly Metrolinx screwed up the hopes of eastward expansion past Kennedy, I doubt they would protect for a branch line of Line 5 west of Renforth.
I was talking about the central underground portion where you referenced capacity issues. If the central portion is 2 minutes, then a branch into Mississauga would be 4 minutes. Obviously 2 minute service not possible on street.

There are many people in Mississauga who take Bloor subway and get off at a variety of stops or transfer to Yonge and University lines. I am not sure why jobs at Cedarvale specifically so important. Eglinton in Mississauga already a busy corridor its own right without connection to Cedarvale. Study for Derry LRT already underway and Eglinton will be next in line.

You complain that the LRT has no capacity for extension into Mississauga but at the same time you say not enough people in Mississauga would use it. LRT is not enough but LRT is excessive... Seems to me you just want to complain about LRTs in general as you done in the other threads.

I have criticized Adam Giambrone and Transit City more than anyone else here over the years, I see no point in revisiting all those all old debates, especially in a thread about an extension into Mississauga. What's done is done, all we can do is make the most of what we have, turn a mistake into an opportunity. You're not going to convince anyone here that both Mississauga and Toronto are unsuitable places for light rail.
 
not enough people in Mississauga would use it. LRT is not enough but LRT is excessive... Seems to me you just want to complain about LRTs in general as you done in the other threads.
You're strawmanning me. I did not say not enough people in Mississauga would use it... Where did I say this? The point was longer distance trips are less feasible, less attractive. No doubt some people desperate enough will do 3 hour round trips to work, even 4 hours, but that's not something that we should aim for in planning. LRTs have their time and place. I do not dislike LRTs in some places for the sake of disliking LRTs, it's because they're often unsuitable or physically would not fit in the public ROW. Many tram systems in Europe are great.

I've had people tell me they'd love an LRT down Lawrence, and actually I'd like that too, but look at the ROW width from property line to property line.... We're basically down to 4 remaining areas or corridors that could fit a surface tram, Steeles Avenue, the Line 7 Eglinton East area, Waterfront West and East. Were it up to me, would I expropriate the houses on Lawrence to make room for an LRT? In a heartbeat, but the costs and the politics just would not allow this to happen.

There are places where LRTs work besides the aforementioned 4 places: Line 6 Finch West is as fast as Paris T9 now, something to be celebrated. Line 6 is suitable enough for a tram, certainly the ridership would grow to reap the full benefits eventually. So I am very positive on Line 6 now.

However, going forward driverless metros allow transit authorities to not go broke due to rising labour costs. 70% of the TTC operating budget is labour costs now. In an ideal world, that could be reduced significantly to free up money for capital projects. The driverless Copenhagen metro turns an operating profit partially due to low labour costs.

Back to Eglinton West, if LRTs (low-floor trams) are so universally amazing, why are there dozens of Chinese cities with wide arterials not running them on the road side or median? We have to think about things like trip distance and population distribution. North Americans have uniquely long commutes, surface LRT to connect Mississauga to Toronto, especially Eglinton, would be highly suboptimal in the long run. Part of the calculus for choosing metro in China, is in the government knowing that average commutes were long.

Another case, Hurontario has the potential to grow quite dense in the not-so-distant future, in which case the LRT's lower capacity could end up restricting further densification as the roads and transit infrastructure reach its limits. Futureproofing and overbuilding transit (as is common in China) does not hurt. The opposite, which is underbuilding in North America risks hurting the future.
 
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