Eglinton East LRT | Metrolinx

[Rainforest]

^^^ I don't understand. Wasn't Kennedy station designed with an eastern LRT in mind so it would just be a straight line under Eglinton to merge to street level once it goes thru the station? Wasn't the location of the Scar subway also built with this in mind?

Unfortunately, the exact opposite happened. Metrolinx has been fully aware that the eastern LRT project is in design phase and waiting for the funding, and that interlining between ECLRT and the eastern LRT would be beneficial. And yet, they managed to design the Line 2 tunnel in a manner that makes connecting LRT tracks west of Kennedy to LRT tracks east of Kennedy extremely difficult.

I can't wrap my head around that. But, that's the situation on the ground.

 

[KhalilHeron]

^^^ I don't understand. Wasn't Kennedy station designed with an eastern LRT in mind so it would just be a straight line under Eglinton to merge to street level once it goes thru the station? Wasn't the location of the Scar subway also built with this in mind?

You'd think so, but no. Metrolinx claims the tunnel wont be able to bear the weight of an LRT portal above it and has refused to redesign it even though tunneling has not yet reached that location. That's the main reason the EELRT is currently being planned as its own separate line.

 

[Rainforest]

Personal Opinion: I personally believe it sounds a bit far fetched and that extending 5 could totally be done, if with added complexity. I have no proof or evidence to back that up. I think a non-connecting LRT from Eglinton GO to Kennedy GO would be a massive lost opportunity and cause too many linear transfers; I sincerely think that extra cost is warranted to get line 5 through-running with grade-separation to Eglinton GO.

I see the point, but. Extending Line 5 to Eglinton GO might introduce another linear transfer. Riders who board a bus east or north-east of Eglinton GO, have a direct ride to Kennedy Stn today. Once the LRT is extended, TTC will be very tempted to terminate those bus routes at Eglionton GO, rather than run to Kennedy in parallel with the LRT.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I (and as far as I am aware, nobody here) has access to any engineering documents that would show this to be true or false.

this is the best drawing this is the best i know of, from: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-226596.pdf

I see the point, but. Extending Line 5 to Eglinton GO might introduce another linear transfer. Riders who board a bus east or north-east of Eglinton GO, have a direct ride to Kennedy Stn today. Once the LRT is extended, TTC will be very tempted to terminate those bus routes at Eglionton GO, rather than run to Kennedy in parallel with the LRT.

Same problem with the full LRT plan but at least terminating routes at Eglinton would provide a useful transfer downtown.

 

[lastcommodore]

View attachment 730351this is the best drawing this is the best i know of, from: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-226596.pdf

Thank you! I did not know about this document.
Read through it, unfortunately if this document is right, it's not feasible for 5 to be drawn under the SSE, and not feasible to be above, so the only possible option without rebuilding the whole SSE tunnel under it would be to go surface or above ground where it could not interline with 5... Deeply unfortunate.

Perhaps an alternative would be to rebuild the eastern terminus of line 5 to instead go elevated and meet EELRT in an elevated terminal, but I can already see how ridiculous it sounds that we'd have to rebuild part of a line we just opened. Plus it seems that the document strongly supports the surface alignment for EELRT.

As you said, a dumb decision by MX. Somehow nobody thought to futureproof.

 

[Bojaxs]

Thank you! I did not know about this document.
Read through it, unfortunately if this document is right, it's not feasible for 5 to be drawn under the SSE, and not feasible to be above, so the only possible option without rebuilding the whole SSE tunnel under it would be to go surface or above ground where it could not interline with 5... Deeply unfortunate.

Perhaps an alternative would be to rebuild the eastern terminus of line 5 to instead go elevated and meet EELRT in an elevated terminal, but I can already see how ridiculous it sounds that we'd have to rebuild part of a line we just opened. Plus it seems that the document strongly supports the surface alignment for EELRT.

As you said, a dumb decision by MX. Somehow nobody thought to futureproof.

Another transit "L" for the Toronto area.

I absolutely hate these at-grade LRT's.

Rip 'em up and replace them all with bus lanes! Completely "re-do" Line 5 so it tunnels all the way to Jonesville Crescent, and then elevate from Victoria Park Ave all the way to Eglinton GO station. Make the line completely grade separated. As it should have been from the very beginning.

 

[NY99]

Another transit "L" for the Toronto area.

I absolutely hate these at-grade LRT's.

Rip 'em up and replace them all with bus lanes!

If we had to do it again, should the Finch LRT have been built as BRT? I think there's a very good case for yes, given the drastically lower capital costs, shorter construction timelines, etc. But objectively, what we have is an upgrade over BRT in capacity, speed, etc. Downgrading for bus lanes is a preposterous idea.

Completely "re-do" Line 5 so it tunnels all the way to Jonesville Crescent, and then elevate from Victoria Park Ave all the way to Eglinton GO station. Make the line completely grade separated. As it should have been from the very beginning.

In the long term, I think a full or near-full grade separation of Line 5 is very doable. No extra tunnelling needed. My back-of-the-napkin plan:

1) The in-median section at Sunnybrook can be grade-separated by shifting eastbound traffic north of the LRT ROW (a new bridge span over the West Don and tunnel under the CPKC rail line would be needed, which wouldn't be cheap. Perhaps this could be packaged along with the station for GO 2.0 if/when that happens).

2) The in-median section between Don Valley Station and the East Don can stay. It can be separated from vehicle movements relatively easily. Get rid of Aga Khan station, redo the intersection with the DVP to eliminate left turns (some kind of modified cloverleaf, perhaps?), and create a grade-separated connection to Wynford station, cutting out the at-grade crossing.

3) Then transition to an elevated guideway for Bermondsey station onward to Kennedy.

Grade separation isn't an all-or-nothing proposition. In fact, I don't think you need a new ROW at all until Victoria Park or so. We could probably get away with crossing arms/pedestrian refuge islands at Leslie and Bermondsey, and remove the vehicle conflicts everywhere else, to reap the full benefits of a grade-separated line. This approach minimizes the amount of new hard infrastructure needed, cutting costs substantially.

 

[ssiguy2]

You'd think so, but no. Metrolinx claims the tunnel wont be able to bear the weight of an LRT portal above it and has refused to redesign it even though tunneling has not yet reached that location. That's the main reason the EELRT is currently being planned as its own separate line.

That is nothing short of bizarre. When supporting the LRT east to Eglinton GO, I just assumed that that Kennedy was designed to extend Eglinton further east. Could ML possibly screw up a transit system worse than it already has?

Also, where was the City when all this work was taking place? Both Eglinton portions were part of the original TransitCity which was a City plan not ML. In the 13 years it took to build this line, did no one in the City manage to mention that it should be designed to be extended further east? Thank God you didn't have the same morons running your city 75 years ago or the first section of Yonge to Eglinton would have required them to build a whole new station underneath it and transfer onto a different line to continue in the same direction to Lawrence running under the exact same street when that extension happened. You couldn't make this up.

It's a sad, sad state of affairs when you have to look back a decade and realize that your crack smoking Mayor was right........it should have been a subway.

 

[duffo]

That is nothing short of bizarre. When supporting the LRT east to Eglinton GO, I just assumed that that Kennedy was designed to extend Eglinton further east. Could ML possibly screw up a transit system worse than it already has?

Also, where was the City when all this work was taking place? Both Eglinton portions were part of the original TransitCity which was a City plan not ML. In the 13 years it took to build this line, did no one in the City manage to mention that it should be designed to be extended further east?

Metrolinx runs the show. I doubt this issue came out of nowhere, but rather Metrolinx realized it could reduce tunneling costs by not protecting for EELRT, and the City having no power to stop them.