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Ottawa Transit Developments

EnviroTO said:
Wait a minute... so is Alstom saying we need some silly tram rail for their equipment or just rail like European UIC 60 rail vs AREMA 132 RE?? If they are saying they are only going to build equipment for some special tram rail then this is even dumber than I thought. The whole point of going to standard gauge vs TTC gauge is to NOT need a bunch of unique rail and bogies.
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No, that doesn't seem to be what Alstom is saying here.

But they have been consistent in their proclamation that their trucks under the Citadis Spirit aren't the culprit. They have tried to blame the rails, the geometry, and the restraining rails.

Which I now believe is wrong. The trucks are the problem. They are a unique design not used anywhere else in the world. And particular to their design, they aren't as stable at supporting the bearings, which would explain why Ottawa is having so many bearing issues.

Dan
 
Does anyone know what is so different about Iponam (Ixège POur North AMerica; used on Alstom Citadis Spirits) compared to the regular Ixège bogies?

Doesn't seem to be an issue of pivoting vs. kinda pivoting vs. non-pivoting bogies. As far as I can tell, trams with some bogies being non-pivoting Ixège still perform better than Spirits in tight turns.

2015 Brochure for Alstom Bogies:
 
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urbanclient said:
Does anyone know what is so different about Iponam (Ixège POur North AMerica; used on Alstom Citadis Spirits) compared to the regular Ixège bogies?

Doesn't seem to be an issue of pivoting vs. kinda pivoting vs. non-pivoting bogies. As far as I can tell, trams with some bogies being non-pivoting Ixège still perform better than Spirits in tight turns.

2015 Brochure for Alstom Bogies:
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The main difference is that they are an inside bearing design versus an outside bearing design. The bearings are mounted inboard of the wheels, versus outboard.

This by itself is not unusual. What is unusual is the truck frame in concert with the swing-link suspension AND the outside-hung motors, which use gearboxes to transmit power on the outside of the wheels.

Because of the design, the axles are free to swing in an arc as they move through their suspension range, rather than a pedestal design where they are constrained to only move vertically. And the outside-hung motors mean that there is a torque applied to the end of the axle well outside of both the wheel and the bearing support.

I don't know of any other single LRV design that uses trucks like this. And that includes the Citadis' back in Europe and Africa.

Dan
 
Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?
 
APTA-2048 said:
Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?
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Considering that they seem to be doubling-down on emphasizing "repairing" the existing design to improve its durability, my guess is no.

But then again, the Philly cars are going to be a far more bespoke design akin to the Flexity Outlook cars on Toronto's legacy network, so they may be basing the basic car and truck design on something totally different.

Dan
 
APTA-2048 said:
Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?
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I don't know anything about the Philadelphia system so I wasted nearly an hour trying to find out online. And you can't. It's still in the design phase. But judging from the illustrations you can find, and some bits of info here and there, it seems to be a shrunken version of the Citadis Flexity Freedom cars used on Eglinton (not Finch/Ottawa) or even aspects of the Toronto streetcar, perhaps 80 feet long and with only 2 doors. They are replacing a fleet of Kawasaki vehicles 50 and 53 feet long, and some PCCs. I take it a 100-foot vehicle off the shelf wouldn't work. Reading about the system kind of makes me want to visit, but it's in the evil empire. I'm sure someone on here has been and has some insights.

The Quebec system seems to be up in the air as well. A stretch version of the trams was ordered then put on hold.

I would be extremely surprised if either city accepted the Ottawa Spirit platform after all the problems, and none of the renderings you can find suggest they have.
 
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CapitalSeven said:
I don't know anything about the Philadelphia system so I wasted nearly an hour trying to find out online. And you can't. It's still in the design phase. But judging from the illustrations you can find, and some bits of info here and there, it seems to be a shrunken version of the Citadis cars used on Eglinton (not Finch/Ottawa) or even aspects of the Toronto streetcar, perhaps 80 feet long and with only 2 doors. They are replacing a fleet of Kawasaki vehicles 50 and 53 feet long, and some PCCs. I take it a 100-foot vehicle off the shelf wouldn't work. Reading about the system kind of makes me want to visit, but it's in the evil empire. I'm sure someone on here has been and has some insights.

The Quebec system seems to be up in the air as well. A stretch version of the trams was ordered then put on hold.

I would be extremely surprised if either city accepted the Ottawa Spirit platform after all the problems, and none of the renderings you can find suggest they have.
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I think you have gotten all your train model names mixed up.
Eglinton uses Flexity Freedom, and the TTC Streetcars use Flexity Outlook. Formally made by Bombardier. Now part of Alstom.
Ottawa's Line 1/Confederation Line uses Alstom's Citadis Spirit.
 
I put in an edit. The Flexity line was originally Bombardier of course, but is now owned by Alstom. It all does lend itself to confusion. According to the good folk at Wikipedia, "In 2024, several versions of the Flexity family were retroactively rebranded by Alstom into its own Citadis Classic range; however, as of 2026, the Flexity brand continues to be used by the company for certain models." It's not immediately clear whether the SEPTA vehicle draws from Flexity or Citadis "heritage" platforms.
 
After spending a whole day on OC Transpo, I noticed that as much as people give the TTC criticism for how they run their system I have to give them credit.

The TTC in general while carrying more people is cleaner. The stations are cleaner, the trains and buses are cleaner.

With the Ottawa LRT the escalators look like they have not been cleaned in years. The bus floors are covered in dirt even though it's a sunny day.

I dont know if it's a funding issue but more needs to be done including power washing stations and cleaning escalators. Elevators work but many are in rough condition. TTC elevators are much cleaner and are in better working condition.
 
Bordercollie said:
After spending a whole day on OC Transpo, I noticed that as much as people give the TTC criticism for how they run their system I have to give them credit.

The TTC in general while carrying more people is cleaner. The stations are cleaner, the trains and buses are cleaner.

With the Ottawa LRT the escalators look like they have not been cleaned in years. The bus floors are covered in dirt even though it's a sunny day.

I dont know if it's a funding issue but more needs to be done including power washing stations and cleaning escalators. Elevators work but many are in rough condition. TTC elevators are much cleaner and are in better working condition.
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It's partially climate. Ottawa has much rougher winters and a lot of winter gunk builds up. They usually do a big power wash in early May.

That being said the Ottawa station cleaners don't seem to be setting any world records for cleanliness, but you are seeing it at it's worst
 
ownthesky said:
Am I crazy or could you convert the LRT into a functional metro for a fraction of the cost of getting a high speed train into "downtown" Ottawa? In any other modern city, Tremblay would get you to parliament in a couple minutes using a modern metro.
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The Ottawa O-Train as flawed as it is, does not have a slow average speed (on paper). In fact, it's often faster than TTC Line 1 and 2 (on paper). All the more mind boggling they chose some bespoke low floor that ended up being a lemon.

The section from Tremblay to Parliament Hill is very curvy, so it takes 12-13 min for 4.5-5 km, which isn't awful per se. Last year I took the O-Train from downtown to Tremblay to catch the train back to Toronto. The experience wasn't much worse than a metro, other than the trains being extra shaky.
 
urbanclient said:
The Ottawa O-Train as flawed as it is, does not have a slow average speed (on paper). In fact, it's often faster than TTC Line 1 and 2 (on paper). All the more mind boggling they chose some bespoke low floor that ended up being a lemon.

The section from Tremblay to Parliament Hill is very curvy, so it takes 12-13 min for 4.5-5 km, which isn't awful per se. Last year I took the O-Train from downtown to Tremblay to catch the train back to Toronto. The experience wasn't much worse than a metro, other than the trains being extra shaky.
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It's running at about 31km/hr now slower than when it started, but kind of mid pack performance wise. One of the things that I've always thought about perceived performance is that being mostly overground makes it "feel" slower compared to moving at the same speed in a tunnel. It's inconvenient speed also I think affects this, fast in spots and slow in others, even though the average is fairly typical

People talk about REM and SkyTrain when comparing, but both those are far faster than the average metro system.
 
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