Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[EnviroTO]

What is the greenbelt anyways. It's just a made up line on a map.

Home - Greenbelt Foundation

greenbelt.ca

The green belt isn't just the urban boundary, it is a bunch of naturally sensitive areas like the escarpment and the moraine. There is some protected countryside and if any of the greenbelt is removed from the area and shifted further out I would expect it would be the protected and non-specialty farming areas. Your 413 is a freeway through the Oak Ridges moraine where no development can happen. It is too far north to be that useful. What really needs to happen is that Ford gets a build an underground 401 estimate, and then "saves money" by buying the 407 and lowers the tolls so the 407 carries more vehicles.

 

[Westey]

Home - Greenbelt Foundation

greenbelt.ca

The green belt isn't just the urban boundary, it is a bunch of naturally sensitive areas like the escarpment and the moraine. There is some protected countryside and if any of the greenbelt is removed from the area and shifted further out I would expect it would be the protected and non-specialty farming areas. Your 413 is a freeway through the Oak Ridges moraine where no development can happen. It is too far north to be that useful. What really needs to happen is that Ford gets a build an underground 401 estimate, and then "saves money" by buying the 407 and lowers the tolls so the 407 carries more vehicles.

Wasn't the 401 too far north to be useful?

After all, even a decade after it was built there were horse farm on York Mills (and Leslie).
Maybe people here remember when Wonderland was in the middle of nowhere?
Go back to Canada's population of 30M and maybe this highway expansion won't be needed.
I think this 413 East Extension is the solution instead of the 401 tunnel - which I peg at about $250B.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

The most problematic section is between the 400 and 404, that area really is either developed or protected under the Oak Ridges Moraine. You would see fierce opposition, much more than the 413. I'm not sure I would even support paving over this, even the 413 will need a massive bridge over the Humber to avoid catastrophic damage. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I'm also not sure there really is even a problem of accessing the GTA from the east- the 401 in Scarborough, while certainly not empty, is noticeably better than through North York, and the 407E has proven effective in Durham. The 401 is also already planned to be modernized and expanded further towards Bowmanville.

 

[Civdis]

Wasn't the 401 too far north to be useful?

After all, even a decade after it was built there were horse farm on York Mills (and Leslie).
Maybe people here remember when Wonderland was in the middle of nowhere?
Go back to Canada's population of 30M and maybe this highway expansion won't be needed.
I think this 413 East Extension is the solution instead of the 401 tunnel - which I peg at about $250B.

Yes, the 401 was considered a "Bypass" when it was built. 30 years ago, I remember traffic reporters referring to the 401 as being "across the top of Toronto". As the City grows, the need for east west routes grows with it. It will be along time, but I think the 413 will eventually be extended east to Durham region.

 

[narduch]

At the end of the day most traffic is still trying to get downtown.

Adding another East West highway way north doesn't solve our biggest traffic issues.

We aren't going to fix this problem with more highways.

Better public transit and thinking outside the box (pushing Work From Home) would have a far greater affect.

 

[EnviroTO]

When the 401 was built it was north of Toronto and most of the development, but the land it went through had a mix of no environmental significance and no protections. People knew it would trigger development and most people were on board with that. Car oriented developments like malls followed quickly right next to the freeway. None of that will be allowed to show up on a freeway running across the Oak Ridges Moraine. People are going to protect Oak Ridges Moraine, Jefferson Forest, Bruce's Mill Conservation Area, Glen Major Forest, Rouge Park, and Greenwood Conservation Area, and the communities of Jefferson and Oak Ridges will fight vehemently against it. Maybe all the golfers will show up to for impacting all the more affordable golf courses in the GTA.

The freeways that will cross between the 400 and 404 north of the 401 and south of Lake Simcoe will be the 407 and the Bradford By-Pass, and that will likely always be true. This works in planning because King City, Oak Ridges, and Stouffville prefer to continue on a small villages and don't aspire to have high-rises and big industry.

 

[Westey]

Yes, the 401 was considered a "Bypass" when it was built. 30 years ago, I remember traffic reporters referring to the 401 as being "across the top of Toronto". As the City grows, the need for east west routes grows with it. It will be along time, but I think the 413 will eventually be extended east to Durham region.

The 401 was built in the 50's.
The core/collector was built in the mid 60's.
In the 80's they squeezed in a few more lanes.
in the 90's they built 407.
in the 00's and 10's they added lanes to the 407.
The 2030's seems to be the expected time another ring road is needed. (maybe 2040's for the East section but you need to plan now).

 

[EnviroTO]

There is a problem east-west and the issue is that (a) too much freight goes long distance in trucks and (b) to take freight between the Michigan border and points east of Toronto requires going through Toronto on the congested 401 or the expensive 407. No "avoid Toronto" option exists for trucks other than to run them through the city during the night. Maybe that option is enough though.

 

[EnviroTO]

The 2030's seems to be the expected time another ring road is needed. (maybe 2040's for the East section but you need to plan now).

We don't need it. Tokyo with its population of 18 million has freeways that are only 2-3 lanes in each direction, and even then they plan on getting rid of some of them in city cores. We need it only because we built it and create a development pattern that uses it.

 

[Civdis]

I

We don't need it. Tokyo with its population of 18 million has freeways that are only 2-3 lanes in each direction, and even then they plan on getting rid of some of them in city cores. We need it only because we built it and create a development pattern that uses it.

Not a fair comparison in so many ways.

 

[EnviroTO]

How many of those not fair comparisons are (a) things we can control but choose not to, or (b) are tied to things we can't control (where we are, our genetics, the weather, etc)?

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

There is a problem east-west and the issue is that (a) too much freight goes long distance in trucks and (b) to take freight between the Michigan border and points east of Toronto requires going through Toronto on the congested 401 or the expensive 407. No "avoid Toronto" option exists for trucks other than to run them through the city during the night. Maybe that option is enough though.

Well you could use CN or CPKC Rail from the Michigan border to east of Toronto.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

Well you could use CN or CPKC Rail from the Michigan border to east of Toronto.

While freight rail is incredibly useful, in not all scenarios it is the best. You have to remember that every time the cargo has to be transferred on and off a train, it significantly increases time and costs. The longer the distance, the more economical trains become. Needless to say you can improve CN all you want from Michigan but at the end of the day a lot of companies will still want to truck it over (Detroit to Toronto is not even that far...). I don't know the exact point where trains become more economical, but I have to imagine at <10 hours and especially <5, trucks will win. And of course, the bigger the load the easier trains become to justify,

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

While freight rail is incredibly useful, in not all scenarios it is the best. You have to remember that every time the cargo has to be transferred on and off a train, it significantly increases time and costs. The longer the distance, the more economical trains become. Needless to say you can improve CN all you want from Michigan but at the end of the day a lot of companies will still want to truck it over (Detroit to Toronto is not even that far...). I don't know the exact point where trains become more economical, but I have to imagine at <10 hours and especially <5, trucks will win. And of course, the bigger the load the easier trains become to justify,

Was it like that in the 1960s or 1970s? Probably not, but you had TOFC trains back in the day.