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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

Allandale25 said:
Article and the full quote:

"Speaking with reporters in Brockville, Ont., on Monday, Ford was asked where he would like to see the rail line built.

“I agree 100 per cent, follow the 401 corridor,” Ford said.

“Don’t start taking farmers’ land and everything else out; just follow the 401 corridor, it makes sense. And maybe make a stop in Kingston, because it’s a little too weighted on the other side of the border. They have a few stops, but we need a couple more stops here in Ontario.”"

www.ctvnews.ca

Premier wants high-speed rail built along Ontario’s Hwy. 401 corridor

The proposed high-speed rail line connecting Ottawa and Toronto should be built along the Highway 401 corridor, and “maybe make a stop in Kingston,” according to Premier Doug Ford.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca
Click to expand...
Almost the entire 401 right of way is abutted by farmland they'd have to buy from framers lol


Such a boneheaded comment by our premier. Any change to the corridor just moves the cone of angry rural people from one area to another, you'll still need to buy up vaste corridors of land to get in and out of the 401.
 
As soon as we talk about the 401 corridor, we need to expropriate much more expensive land, and need to modify numerous existing overpasses.

The elephant in the room is that we start compromising HSR with local service. It is not just Kingston, because without Kingston, service to the smaller cities is no longer viable.

The big one is service to Ottawa, a very big destination. It is no longer a direct route and further compromises service to Montreal. We then face building two routes making the whole project potentially unaffordable.

The most direct route from Kingston to Ottawa never previously had a railway and crosses better farmland than exists north Kingston especially if we choose to cross shield country near Highway 7.

Ford's involvement in this is too political and interferes with proper planning objectives. This line will affect property no matter where it goes. I argue that more will be affected when following the 401 in some way and construction costs will skyrocket. This is a perfect example of scope creep and we risk spending $100s M and end up with nothing.
 
It seems clear that Ford is trying to destabilize the project. The same people telling Ford to protect Ontario's latent ICE automobile industry in the face of stronger international EV competition are surely also encouraging him to scuttle the HSR project for the same reason.

As with anything Ford says, the important question to ask is: who benefits from his actions and preferences?

MV5BYjQ3Y2M2NDQtZTgyOS00MmUxLTg2YmMtNjM1MzMyNjUxMGU0XkEyXkFqcGc@._V1_.jpg

😁
 
Alto needs to come clean sooner rather than later to explain the cost (and service) difference of using the 401 corridor and adding the Kingston stop compared to the current study area. That way, the public knows the cost would be even higher than the already projected $60-90 billion.
 
Jonathan's Junction said:
The 401 is designed with a curve radius meant for speeds of 100-130km/h. Alto will be designed in mind for at least 300km/h, which means the curve radii need to be almost 7km. The 401 is not as straight as you think it is, if you were to build Alto along it you would need significant realignments in many places. The corridor is also not as wide as you think it is, an Alto corridor would probably need at least 30m of space, maybe even more in some places, which simply does not exist nicely to the side or anything in the 401 corridor. In fact, from my rudimentary Google Maps measurements, the 401 ROW is maybe only 60m itself in many places if we are being generous. So it would require a new expropriated corridor somewhere next to the highway anyway...
View attachment 721340View attachment 721341
Click to expand...


Though I agree with your conclusion, why a 30 m width? Looking at a few HSR networks elsewhere I've found that it's typically 10 - 20 m wide for a 2 track ROW, and I don't think there's plans for quad tracking.

Bordercollie said:
It doesn't literally need to follow the 401 corridor.

And you would need to do all that if you built a new corridor anyway.

But the 401 does have a lot of steep hills around Kingston that wouldn't work for trains.
Click to expand...

Much of the 401 corridor is surrounded by farmland as well. So if that's the major concern for the northern route than the 401 route is just as bad.

Allandale25 said:
Article and the full quote:

"Speaking with reporters in Brockville, Ont., on Monday, Ford was asked where he would like to see the rail line built.

“I agree 100 per cent, follow the 401 corridor,” Ford said.

“Don’t start taking farmers’ land and everything else out; just follow the 401 corridor, it makes sense. And maybe make a stop in Kingston, because it’s a little too weighted on the other side of the border. They have a few stops, but we need a couple more stops here in Ontario.”"

www.ctvnews.ca

Premier wants high-speed rail built along Ontario’s Hwy. 401 corridor

The proposed high-speed rail line connecting Ottawa and Toronto should be built along the Highway 401 corridor, and “maybe make a stop in Kingston,” according to Premier Doug Ford.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca
Click to expand...
The entire 401 route through rural Ontario runs through farmland. Any expansion or additions to this corridor will take farmland, and arguably far more productive farmland than the northern route.


***Edited to consolidate multiple consecutive posts***
 
Last edited:
TwoWheelPoli said:
Alto needs to come clean sooner rather than later to explain the cost (and service) difference of using the 401 corridor and adding the Kingston stop compared to the current study area. That way, the public knows the cost would be even higher than the already projected $60-90 billion.
Click to expand...

A lot of people seem to be assuming that the engineers at Alto had everything mapped out and designed before consultation started and are just hiding the information. They don't need to "come clean" because they simply don't have this information yet, they are clearly trying to follow good engineering design process to refine the scope and design. That process involves evaluating different route options, discussions with stakeholders, and determine the costs, benefits, pros, and cons of various design options. Yes, I'm sure they have a leading candidate preliminary design, but it is likely not developed enough to be released and may be subject to change as they evaluate costs and stakeholder feedback.

I don't think they need to spend extra time/money to evaluate a 401 option, it wasn't part of their original scope and had clearly been ruled out much earlier in the process. Ford's comments are just him taking his typical populist stance "I stand behind our farmers" works well with rural voters and his opinion on Alto routing isn't going to swing anyone away from him.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Though I agree with your conclusion, why a 30 m width? Looking at a few HSR networks elsewhere I've found that it's typically 10 - 20 m wide for a 2 track ROW, and I don't think there's plans for quad tracking.
Click to expand...
To add to the earlier point: As with any construction project, you need a buffer zone on both sides for construction. To illustrate that point, you cannot build a public sidewalk up against a private property line without workers and machinery stepping foot on private property. Some form(s) of expropriation would be needed for Alto along the 401 e.g. a temporary construction easement and/or a more permanent interest etc...

I believe @Jonathan's Junction is saying there often isn't enough space for the track ROW itself, much less the space needed to accommodate construction of said ROW.
 
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