Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[NorthernTracks]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthernTracksBlog/comments/1rrbn83/video_standing_committee_on_transport

 

[micheal_can]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NorthernTracksBlog/comments/1rrbn83/video_standing_committee_on_transport

Do we have a plan?

No.....

 

[lenaitch]

Remember where all the decisions are made is also where the majority of our politicians live. So, if it suits them, such as an expanded highway system for their cottage drive, then they will do it. When it does not, they make an excuse, like the reason 69 still is not 4 lanes. They say it is because of the FN reserves. The 400 already goes through a fN reserve. That got resolved because it was advantageous to cottagers from the south.

Right now,John Vanthof, an MPP for Timiskaming—Cochrane is on a tour of northern ON and highlighting the road issues. In 2024 Highway 11 was closed 363 times. In 2024, Highway 17 was closed 886! When they are closed they are closed in both directions. How many times has the 401 been closed in both directions in 2024? It is numbers like this that is why the excuse of "oh, you still have a highway to take to get there" is nonsense.

NDP politicians set off on road trip to highlight northern Ontario road dangers

Three Ontario New Democrats have set off on a road trip from Toronto to the Manitoba border and back to highlight the dangers of northern roads.

www.ctvnews.ca

I just came back from a drive from Montreal to Sudbury. Saw the game on Tuesday ant was planning on leaving the next day. Saw the forecast and, after dropping a friend off, headed home...at 11:30pm. A normal 8 hour drive turned into a 10 hour drive as we hit the storm in Pembroke. Cruising at around 60km/hr for much of the way is not fun. Thank goodness we are smart and drive an AWD SUV with wither tires and studs.

For decades, there has been a quiet push for separation, not from Canada, but from the province. It is things like this that highlight why. For those that do not get it,I understand why you do not get it. You have roads to your cottage, you have good transit to your specialists, And when a major road closes, it is rare. You do not live in the same world as we do. The government tends to cut things where votes don't matter. The return of the Northlander is showing that there may be home that we are seeing that reversed.

It seems we are moving away from railroads and onto highways, but I'll play along.

We don't know the real reason for the slow timeline on the Hwy 69/400 construction, but you cannot discount the complexity of dealing with FN territories. They each, of necessity, involve the provincial and federal governments along with the band council, many of which require a consensus of residents to approve anything. That stretch of Hwy 400 that "already goes through a FN reserve" was the 'Wahta gap' south of Mactier, where the highway was fully twinned and separated except an eight kilometer section cutting through the territory. Negotiation took over 10 years. That was before the era of the court-recognized 'traditional territory" concept, so even if the planned right-of-way doesn't cut through a designated 'reserve', there still is requirement to consult and obtain 'full, free and informed consent'. Going from memory but I think Hwy 69/400 cuts through four additional FNTs, so there's that.

I won't argue Vanthof's number of closures but they seem high. A proper data analysis would have to isolate out purely weather related closures since they would impact a highway regardless of the configuration. I don't know how many times the 401 has been closed but do know it is more than zero., and highways and local roads in mid-western and central Ontario are closed for weather all the time.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but the northern Ontario highway issue is multi-faceted. This has been a tough winter, nobody can argue that, but it isn't our first. If I am allowed anecdotal input, I policed a roughly 140 km stretch of Hwy 17 in the early 1980s. We closed the highway a fair bit due to weather during the winter. What we didn't have a lot of back then was serious collisions. We had a couple per year.

The nature of long-haul trucking has changed in recent years and, in my mind, a bigger problem than 2-lane highways, and cheaper to solve. The level of training, skill, experience and professionalism is nowhere near what it used to be. Income is a race to the bottom. They are paid by the kilometer and since they are regulated by hours, they have to pile on the kilometers to make a living, and many are piling on the kilometers on roads and weather conditions they are often unfamiliar with, driving trucks and loads they are often unfamiliar with. Add on the distractions of mobile data. The disastrous level of training and licencing, along with enforcement, both drivers and carriers, is on the government.

Good on the member for highlighting the issue, but I think he is championing the unrealistic expectation that the sole answer is to twin Hwys 11 and 17. Even an NDPer should recognize the simple reality that neither the province nor the construction industry has the capacity to do that in any of our lifetimes. Not to say they shouldn't try, maybe try faster, but the sheer distance divided by the amount that could realistically be built in a given year makes it a multi-decade multi-billion dollar project.

To the 'north vs south' complaint, numbers matter and play a big part when the government spends money. Simply going to the public MTO traffic volume tables would show where the greatest needs are. The traffic counts on northern highways are not all that high and really haven't grown substantially in the past couple of decades. Compare an Annual Average Daily Traffic court of 45,500 on Hwy 401 at Cobourg against 1,450 on Hwy 11 at Geraldton and tell me where the attention goes.

As for northern Ontario separatism, the 'rest of Ontario' is more than Toronto. Lots of southerners have to drive to medical specialists. Lots of southerners have to drive further because their local ER is closed. Lots of southern roads get closed. If by "quiet push" you mean the Northern Ontario (Heritage) Party; yup, sure is quiet.

 

[micheal_can]

It seems we are moving away from railroads and onto highways, but I'll play along.

The name of this thread is:

Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation​

Not rails, or roads, or highways.
All of it.

We don't know the real reason for the slow timeline on the Hwy 69/400 construction, but you cannot discount the complexity of dealing with FN territories. They each, of necessity, involve the provincial and federal governments along with the band council, many of which require a consensus of residents to approve anything. That stretch of Hwy 400 that "already goes through a FN reserve" was the 'Wahta gap' south of Mactier, where the highway was fully twinned and separated except an eight kilometer section cutting through the territory. Negotiation took over 10 years. That was before the era of the court-recognized 'traditional territory" concept, so even if the planned right-of-way doesn't cut through a designated 'reserve', there still is requirement to consult and obtain 'full, free and informed consent'. Going from memory but I think Hwy 69/400 cuts through four additional FNTs, so there's that.

I won't argue Vanthof's number of closures but they seem high. A proper data analysis would have to isolate out purely weather related closures since they would impact a highway regardless of the configuration. I don't know how many times the 401 has been closed but do know it is more than zero., and highways and local roads in mid-western and central Ontario are closed for weather all the time.

You doubt his numbers?
And those numbers were for 2024, not this winter, and not last winter.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but the northern Ontario highway issue is multi-faceted. This has been a tough winter, nobody can argue that, but it isn't our first. If I am allowed anecdotal input, I policed a roughly 140 km stretch of Hwy 17 in the early 1980s. We closed the highway a fair bit due to weather during the winter. What we didn't have a lot of back then was serious collisions. We had a couple per year.

Back in the 80s, cops were everywhere. The inspection stations were open more often, weren't they?

The nature of long-haul trucking has changed in recent years and, in my mind, a bigger problem than 2-lane highways, and cheaper to solve. The level of training, skill, experience and professionalism is nowhere near what it used to be. Income is a race to the bottom. They are paid by the kilometer and since they are regulated by hours, they have to pile on the kilometers to make a living, and many are piling on the kilometers on roads and weather conditions they are often unfamiliar with, driving trucks and loads they are often unfamiliar with. Add on the distractions of mobile data. The disastrous level of training and licencing, along with enforcement, both drivers and carriers, is on the government.

Good on the member for highlighting the issue, but I think he is championing the unrealistic expectation that the sole answer is to twin Hwys 11 and 17. Even an NDPer should recognize the simple reality that neither the province nor the construction industry has the capacity to do that in any of our lifetimes. Not to say they shouldn't try, maybe try faster, but the sheer distance divided by the amount that could realistically be built in a given year makes it a multi-decade multi-billion dollar project.

There is capacity to add lanes to Highway 400.There is resources to build the Bradford Bypass. There are resources for anything and everything that benefits the south. Take those resources and build the highways out. It may take a long time, but as one section opens, the next should have construction started. Ideally, once one part of the work is done, the crew moves to the next part as the new crew works on the next part of that first section. The resources are there, they are just not being allocated appropriately, in my view, and in the view of many of us Northerners.

To the 'north vs south' complaint, numbers matter and play a big part when the government spends money. Simply going to the public MTO traffic volume tables would show where the greatest needs are. The traffic counts on northern highways are not all that high and really haven't grown substantially in the past couple of decades. Compare an Annual Average Daily Traffic court of 45,500 on Hwy 401 at Cobourg against 1,450 on Hwy 11 at Geraldton and tell me where the attention goes.

AADT is the worst metric to use when we are talking of cross Canada traffic. There is a difference in safety between a 2 lane undivided highway and a 4 lane divided highway. The 2+1 idea is not that bad of an idea, if it ever gets built.

Where AADT does make sense is to go from 4 lanes to 6 lanes or more..

As for northern Ontario separatism, the 'rest of Ontario' is more than Toronto. Lots of southerners have to drive to medical specialists. Lots of southerners have to drive further because their local ER is closed. Lots of southern roads get closed. If by "quiet push" you mean the Northern Ontario (Heritage) Party; yup, sure is quiet.

How many drive ~700 km one way (Rough distance SSM - Toronto)

How many of those areas only have that one highway/road?

That is the political side of it, and if anyone up here knew that one of those being elected would do something, we would elect one. I am certain the only reason why the Northlander is coming back is due to the elected PC MPPs. Mike Harris's PCs (He was elected in the North Bay/Nipissing riding) was one of the many Premiers that have divested the Ontario Northland.


Sounds like you used to be OPP...Can you talk to those doing it and have them actually pull everyone over who is breaking the traffic laws? The joke around here is the are all asleep instead of patrolling. I should not be able to go over the limit without them turning on their lights. That alone would solve so many issues in the North.

I can go on for pages. We all know this. I will simply say that a railway represents different things for different people, depending on where you live. I feel we are reaching the point where returning service that has been cut, whether it be provincial, federal or privately run would be welcomed.

 

[lenaitch]

You doubt his numbers?
And those numbers were for 2024, not this winter, and not last winter.

Ya, I do, but nothing beyond a sense that they strike me as being high. It would depend on his data. Depending on his data, half of last winter - the part before December 31st - would be 2024.

Back in the 80s, cops were everywhere. The inspection stations were open more often, weren't they?

No idea about MTO inspection stations and I have my own views about highway carrier enforcement. I remember having a tour of the brand new 'weight-in-motion' station on Hwy 401 near Putnam (Ingersoll) as part of a course and remember commenting that it doesn't sound like much of an inspection. In my perfect world, inspection stations would be near every point of entry and open 24/7.

Police deployment is a complex issue. Raw numbers don't tell the whole tale because often, tasks that used to take one member an hour now take three members (just an off-the-cuff example) due to safety concerns, changes in the law, complexity and other factors. Raw numbers also don't capture other duties that didn't exist before, extended leaves, etc. I do get the sense, simply from the outside looking in, that members on preventative patrol don't go as far afield as they used to. In my day (ya, I know), we were expected to cover the highways in our zone at least once per shift barring any calls. In large northern zones, that could take several hours. Now, I seldom see cruisers mor than 10 or 15 kilks from town and I think the truckers and other professional travellers know that so the odds of getting randomly caught for doing something stupid are pretty low.

AADT is the worst metric to use when we are talking of cross Canada traffic. There is a difference in safety between a 2 lane undivided highway and a 4 lane divided highway. The 2+1 idea is not that bad of an idea, if it ever gets built.

Where AADT does make sense is to go from 4 lanes to 6 lanes or more..

I'm not a highway engineer so have no clue what drives highway design changes, but can only assume that traffic volumes and collision rates are part of it. Engineers may come to conclusion and make recommendations but they aren't the ones who write the cheques.

How many drive ~700 km one way (Rough distance SSM - Toronto)

I won't diminish the impact of serious medical conditions but I suspect the number of people who have to travel from Soo to Toronto for treatment these days is relatively low. Facilities such as regional cancer centres have reduced that need. Weather-related impacts aren't just a northern issue. My brother in Meaford couldn't get to Owen Sound this winter because of closed roads (all of them).

Mike Harris's PCs (He was elected in the North Bay/Nipissing riding) was one of the many Premiers that have divested the Ontario Northland.

Actually, it was the McGuinty/Wynne governments that cancelled the Northlander and divested Ontera from the ONTC.

Sounds like you used to be OPP...Can you talk to those doing it and have them actually pull everyone over who is breaking the traffic laws? The joke around here is the are all asleep instead of patrolling. I should not be able to go over the limit without them turning on their lights. That alone would solve so many issues in the North.

Sure. I'll call a meeting.

The one thing I did miss in my little diatribe is the issue of winter maintenance standards. There have been calls for the standards on northern Class 1 highways to be brought up to 400-series standards. That is also on the government to change.

 

[micheal_can]

Ya, I do, but nothing beyond a sense that they strike me as being high. It would depend on his data. Depending on his data, half of last winter - the part before December 31st - would be 2024.

I'll be honest, I am taking him at his word. Is there a reliable source that we all can see how often our provincial highways are closed?

No idea about MTO inspection stations and I have my own views about highway carrier enforcement. I remember having a tour of the brand new 'weight-in-motion' station on Hwy 401 near Putnam (Ingersoll) as part of a course and remember commenting that it doesn't sound like much of an inspection. In my perfect world, inspection stations would be near every point of entry and open 24/7.

You and I are on the same page. I would go one step further and have all inspection stations open 24/7, not just the ones at points of entry. The trucking industry has gotten very dangerous for everyone on the road. But so has the drivers of regular cars.

Police deployment is a complex issue. Raw numbers don't tell the whole tale because often, tasks that used to take one member an hour now take three members (just an off-the-cuff example) due to safety concerns, changes in the law, complexity and other factors. Raw numbers also don't capture other duties that didn't exist before, extended leaves, etc. I do get the sense, simply from the outside looking in, that members on preventative patrol don't go as far afield as they used to. In my day (ya, I know), we were expected to cover the highways in our zone at least once per shift barring any calls. In large northern zones, that could take several hours. Now, I seldom see cruisers mor than 10 or 15 kilks from town and I think the truckers and other professional travellers know that so the odds of getting randomly caught for doing something stupid are pretty low.

You are getting it. I am all for more officers if needed to keep our roads safe. In my view, our policing budget has ballooned without the safety of the public going up. My thinking is it the fact they have become too top heavy with administrators. That is not unique to policing.

I'm not a highway engineer so have no clue what drives highway design changes, but can only assume that traffic volumes and collision rates are part of it. Engineers may come to conclusion and make recommendations but they aren't the ones who write the cheques.

I have said it before, everything is political. This road issue is not an engineering issue, it is a political issue. It is why the 400 is being widened while up here we have 2 lane highways. The money is there, but it is allocated to other things that give better politics.

I won't diminish the impact of serious medical conditions but I suspect the number of people who have to travel from Soo to Toronto for treatment these days is relatively low. Facilities such as regional cancer centres have reduced that need. Weather-related impacts aren't just a northern issue. My brother in Meaford couldn't get to Owen Sound this winter because of closed roads (all of them).

Besides Sudbury, where are the other regional cancer centers?
Besides Sudbury, where are the other heart specialists?

Sudbury's hospital has become the medical epicenter for the north. This is where having a train that connected to North Bay would make some sense. Then the 4th and 5th largest cities in Northern ON would be connected to the largest city in Northern ON.

Actually, it was the McGuinty/Wynne governments that cancelled the Northlander and divested Ontera from the ONTC.

NorOntair was under the ONTC banner and was cut in 1996.One of the first cuts towards privatization.

Sure. I'll call a meeting.

The one thing I did miss in my little diatribe is the issue of winter maintenance standards. There have been calls for the standards on northern Class 1 highways to be brought up to 400-series standards. That is also on the government to change.

If they had the same maintenance as 400 Series highways, that might make winter travel better. As John Vanthof said, there are many solutions. Although I am pro passenger rail, I would welcome being stuck behind a snowplow the whole way home.

 

[crs1026]

Province announces $138-million to acquire 205 km of track for Northlander

The province has acquired 205-kilometres of track for $138-million for the Northlander.

www.nugget.ca

- Paul

 

[NorthernTracks]

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Province announces $138-million to acquire 205 km of track for Northlander

The province has acquired 205-kilometres of track for $138-million for the Northlander.

www.nugget.ca

- Paul

Press release here. This is massive news.

 

[Allandale25]

Press release here. This is massive news.

Sharing this since the line will change from blue to dark green soon.

 

[Allandale25]

I also just noticed that the media release included a map.

 

[Bordercollie]

Apparently the government procured the rail between North Bay and Washago?

Ontario Acquiring More Railway to Help Deliver Fast, Reliable Northlander Service | Ontario Newsroom https://share.google/u0MhA4ZTUU9y4jbbY

So who will be responsible for dispatch on this line?

 

[lenaitch]

I'll be honest, I am taking him at his word. Is there a reliable source that we all can see how often our provincial highways are closed?

I don't know but doubt it. I suspect he had a staffer do some data mining or an information request from the MTO.

You and I are on the same page. I would go one step further and have all inspection stations open 24/7, not just the ones at points of entry. The trucking industry has gotten very dangerous for everyone on the road. But so has the drivers of regular cars.

I would go one step even further and have the OPP take over highway carrier enforcement from the MTO. It is fairly common in the US to have that function within the state police/department of public safety. It was part of a study I did (well, directed to do) many years ago surrounding regulatory enforcement across the provincial government. It went nowhere.

You are getting it. I am all for more officers if needed to keep our roads safe. In my view, our policing budget has ballooned without the safety of the public going up. My thinking is it the fact they have become too top heavy with administrators. That is not unique to policing.

The OPP is probably one of the least top heavy organizations given its size and diversity of scope. About 90% of any police service's budget in Ontario is wages and benefits.

Besides Sudbury, where are the other regional cancer centers?

Thunder Bay

Besides Sudbury, where are the other heart specialists?

A little more difficult to define but there are 'cardiac, stroke and vascular care' centres listed for all the northern city hospitals.

I have said it before, everything is political. This road issue is not an engineering issue, it is a political issue. It is why the 400 is being widened while up here we have 2 lane highways. The money is there, but it is allocated to other things that give better politics.

Of course politics is involved, but I am not convinced that the government has the engineering, design, real estate, project management and fiscal capacity. Nor do I think that industry has the capacity to build it at the rate that the public seems to expect. I'm just going from his social media feeds and some of the comments, but it seems it is just offered as a throw-away solution; 'just twin the highways'. If he is saying that it is only one of the solutions, I'm not seeing it.

Hwy 413 is being fast tracked as golden boy project by this government. Even at that, building this 52 km highway is unofficially expected to take 10 years and cost at least $10bn. To twin both 11 and 17 would involve over 3000 kilometers. Do the math.

NorOntair was under the ONTC banner and was cut in 1996.One of the first cuts towards privatization.

I forgot about that part. As far as I was concerned, it was a costly, failed venture. A fleet of aircraft flying to places like Wawa and Hornpayne carrying ones of passengers. In the winter, the number of flights that had to be cancelled due to weather limits for the aircraft and/or airports was significant.

 

[lenaitch]

I knew about this several months ago but was unable to say anything. One of the first clues was the Emergency Notification Sign at the Old Callander Rd. crossing of the new 'bypass' in North Bay said 'mileage x ONR Newmarket Sub'.

I have been told that CN will still operate their daily (ex. Sunday I think) Toronto-North Bay service and that the revenue to the ONR will pay for the purchase price in about 10 years. No information regarding who will switch the few customers along the line and around North Bay. Not that the area is a hotbed of industrial development but it possible that the ONR will be more amenable to low volume customers than CN was if anybody is thinking about it.

 

[micheal_can]

Province announces $138-million to acquire 205 km of track for Northlander

The province has acquired 205-kilometres of track for $138-million for the Northlander.

www.nugget.ca

- Paul

This is great news!
It makes the viability of the Northlander even better. It also has me thinking that anyone saying that OVR or HCR or other railways won't be bought by the province may need to rethink that stance.