Billy Bishop Airport Expansion?

[bobbob911]

The other question is about whether or not a blast wall is needed for jets, and what the size of that would be. Not a lot of clarity around that.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The turbo-props aren't exactly quiet, compared to jets.

As anyone who's ever watched a Piaggio P.180 takeoff can attest.

 

[innsertnamehere]

How accurate is this NoJetsTO diagram of the runway lengthening needed for jets? If this is accurate I can’t imagine anyone looking at this and thinking this is a rational idea. View attachment 720974

From what I recall from the 2013 proposal, the marine exclusion zone didn't need to change to accommodate the extension. The proponents at the time framed it as infilling part of the lake, but only parts of the lake which already weren't navigable and that the navigable areas would not change.

Not sure where that would stand today with the need for additional runway length from Transportation Canada now.

 

[Jonny5]

I have to wonder if MLSE/Rogers was whispering in a certain someone's ear heavily pushing for this so their teams and the visiting teams don't have to deal with landing all the way out at Pearson and instead all those charter jets could land so much closer to the arenas/stadiums so situations like that embarrassing debacle with the Utah Mammoth last year won't be repeated again. We know Dougie loves his pro-sports.

 

[innsertnamehere]

YTZ isn't super common by global standards. Cities generally don't have airports right next to downtown. It's kind of like excusing a coal power station 2km upwind of downtown as "oh well, cities need power", even if that power station only supplies 5% of the demand for the city.

View attachment 720964
from:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xc2qgl/120_major_airports_by_distance_to_their_citys

There are lots of cities with very urban airports - London, Toronto, San Diego, Pheonix, Boston, Mexico City, Rotterdam, Washington DC... and for a lot of those, it's their primary airport not a secondary field. I really don't think it's a fair characterization, and for a lot of those cities it's viewed as a huge benefit to have easy access to an airport from the downtown. There is a reason London City has grown as it has over the years and why even airports like Chicago Midway or Ronald Reagan in Washington can be so successful - proximity.

 

[SubHuman]

I have to wonder if MLSE/Rogers was whispering in a certain someone's ear heavily pushing for this so their teams and the visiting teams don't have to deal with landing all the way out at Pearson and instead all those charter jets could land so much closer to the arenas/stadiums so situations like that embarrassing debacle with the Utah Mammoth last year won't be repeated again. We know Dougie loves his pro-sports.

I assume the 11pm curfew is also a problem for the idea of pro sports teams using YTZ when departing after an evening game, which almost all the games are except for occasionally some in baseball.

Ok, another question. If they are only proposing an extension to one of the runways, what happens in a cross-wind? All flights requiring the longer runway are cancelled? Diversions to Pearson?

All airports can have flights diverted due to weather, including high winds, though I would assume conditions at YYZ and YTZ are unlikely to be much different.

 

[generalcanada]

How accurate is this NoJetsTO diagram of the runway lengthening needed for jets? If this is accurate I can’t imagine anyone looking at this and thinking this is a rational idea. View attachment 720974

LOL that image has the runway just shy of 3.5km.
YYZ's 06L runway is 3km exactly.
Current runway length is 1.2km
I dont think ford is proposing to send 787's or a380s down there, hes not that ignorant.

Even he is proposing things like a220 which have a takeoff length of 1.5-2km.

The noise is a big thing, the lakefill... not so much

 

[turbanplanner]

Would the safety zone be extend even further if they get jets?

Picture from previous post. @Admiral Beez

I keep seeing conflicting reports, this one is on Toronto.ca

There is billions in infrastructure already invested at Billy Bishop. Removing it for a park or something would be a large GDP hit to the city and would burn billions of stranded assets.

A small runway extension opens up extra capacity and improves productivity. This province needs infrastructure as well as parks - and like it or not, with Buttonville and Downsview closed, the City is rather limited on airport options now.. it can't afford to be down to one airport for the entire city.

Even if this opens Billy Bishop to private jets, that frees up runway slots at Pearson and better balances the airport capacity in the city. And even then, the limited slots here are also an artificial construct.. there is no reason the expansion can also result in more slots added.

I fully agree, the Ironic part is YOO made several anti GA changes to lower traffic. It seems they want to focus on private jets since they can't land at YTZ. I wonder how will they feel if YTZ opens up jet traffic?

And those CEOs of the multi-national companies can fly in their privates to Billy Bishop close to the new metro convention center built on lake fill lol

STOLport is basically the size of a very small green P lot. There isn't parking for private jets imo.

 

[afransen]

All airports can have flights diverted due to weather, including high winds, though I would assume conditions at YYZ and YTZ are unlikely to be much different.

High winds, yes, but YYZ can deal with crosswinds by using different runways. When YTZ has only one runway that can handle jets, there is no alternative. So there will be lots of conditions in which YYZ can continue to operate and YTZ would have to shut down.

In 2024, 3% of the time in 2024 YYZ used the N-S runways due to wind conditions (or maintenance). During those periods I guess YTZ flights needing the longer runway are delayed/cancelled?

 

[Jonny5]

I assume the 11pm curfew is also a problem for the idea of pro sports teams using YTZ when departing after an evening game, which almost all the games are except for occasionally some in baseball.

There's a lot of afternoon Jays games in the season, mostly because they play so many games. TFC also has a lot of afternoon games too, plus the Raptors schedule looks to have most Sunday games at 1:00 p.m..

 

[afransen]

There are lots of cities with very urban airports - London, Toronto, San Diego, Pheonix, Boston, Mexico City, Rotterdam, Washington DC... and for a lot of those, it's their primary airport not a secondary field. I really don't think it's a fair characterization, and for a lot of those cities it's viewed as a huge benefit to have easy access to an airport from the downtown. There is a reason London City has grown as it has over the years and why even airports like Chicago Midway or Ronald Reagan in Washington can be so successful - proximity.

YTZ is still the airport in closest proximity to its downtown. In DC, the airport is in the equivalent of Humber Bay. London City would be Humber Bay Shores.

Seems like it is creating a lot of negative externalities on prime land near downtown for what is a secondary airport. Extending the runway seems like the thin edge of the wedge to broader changes that will ramp-up those externalities. More flights, later curfews, larger facilities, etc. If Toronto really needs a second airport to be scaled up, we have longstanding plans for one in Pickering.

 

[hw621]

YTZ is still the airport in closest proximity to its downtown. In DC, the airport is in the equivalent of Humber Bay. London City would be Humber Bay Shores.

Seems like it is creating a lot of negative externalities on prime land near downtown for what is a secondary airport. Extending the runway seems like the thin edge of the wedge to broader changes that will ramp-up those externalities. More flights, later curfews, larger facilities, etc. If Toronto really needs a second airport to be scaled up, we have longstanding plans for one in Pickering.

Pickering plan is dead no?

 

[innsertnamehere]

YTZ is still the airport in closest proximity to its downtown. In DC, the airport is in the equivalent of Humber Bay. London City would be Humber Bay Shores.

Seems like it is creating a lot of negative externalities on prime land near downtown for what is a secondary airport. Extending the runway seems like the thin edge of the wedge to broader changes that will ramp-up those externalities. More flights, later curfews, larger facilities, etc. If Toronto really needs a second airport to be scaled up, we have longstanding plans for one in Pickering.

How many real negative externalities though? the airport has never particularly bothered me on the waterfront. The Gardiner has a far larger noise and pollution impact on downtown from my experience.. and at the end of the day, it's the downtown of one of the largest cities on the continent, the expectation shouldn't be peace and quiet.

The feds are in the process of divesting their remaining landholdings in Pickering. That project is dead. The next closest airports to Toronto are Oshawa, which is hemmed in by development and can't realistically expand to service commercial airlines, and.. Hamilton.

Exact distances are nitpicking, but YTZ isn't right downtown either. It's 2km away. Yes, Reagan is 4km.. it's terminal is on the far side from downtown so travel times are longer, but in terms of location it's runways get as close as 3 kilometres from the central parts of DC.

London City is further from central London but 4km from Canary Wharf.

Logan in Boston is also about 2km from downtown across a body of water, and it's their primary international airport with over 40 million annual passengers. Phoenix is about 3km and has over 50 million annual passengers - more than Pearson! You make it out like no cities have big airports close to downtown which just couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[picard102]

Pickering plan is dead no?

that's not going to stop anti-YTZ advocates from suggesting it.

 

[ear2ear]

How many real negative externalities though? the airport has never particularly bothered me on the waterfront. The Gardiner has a far larger noise and pollution impact on downtown from my experience.. and at the end of the day, it's the downtown of one of the largest cities on the continent, the expectation shouldn't be peace and quiet.

Agreed that the noise argument is irrelevant. We live in a dense city. It's going to be noisy (because cars, mostly).

The feds are in the process of divesting their remaining landholdings in Pickering. That project is dead. The next closest airports to Toronto are Oshawa, which is hemmed in by development and can't realistically expand to service commercial airlines, and.. Hamilton.

You're right, we should be looking more at Hamilton if regional airport redundancy is the priority. It is a comparable distance to Toronto as Narita is to Tokyo, and it appears to have ample room for expansion.

Exact distances are nitpicking, but YTZ isn't right downtown either. It's 2km away. Yes, Reagan is 4km.. it's terminal is on the far side from downtown so travel times are longer, but in terms of location it's runways get as close as 3 kilometres from the central parts of DC.

London City is further from central London but 4km from Canary Wharf.

So is Bathurst not downtown because it's 2km away from Yonge? Reagan's location in DC has been particularly problematic, so I don't think we should take any lessons from there. And as long as the eastern US airports exist, Toronto will never be the regional hub that London is, so those comparisons are moot too.

Logan in Boston is also about 2km from downtown across a body of water, and it's their primary international airport with over 40 million annual passengers. Phoenix is about 3km and has over 50 million annual passengers - more than Pearson! You make it out like no cities have big airports close to downtown which just couldn't be further from the truth.

I imagine most of those airports would not be built so close to their cities today if there was an option otherwise. We still have that choice.