Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[White Pine]

We were told the same thing on Tuesday when I went. That was a particularly eye-opening statement, and certainly one at odds with the many people that contemplated putting the Toronto station anywhere else. And when pressed about the stations at Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec, only at Montreal was it seen as being a requirement to locate the Alto station nearby Gare Centrale.

The other interesting thing was that there was a bit of contradictory information between stations at the event. For instance, at one station I asked rather pointedly about the potential need for wildlife crossings along the line, and was told that the line would not be a totally sealed corridor so wildlife could cross through without much issue (barring that a lot of species have a great hesitance to crossing wide open spaces). Another location specifically commented about having a fully-sealed corridor for everyone's safety, with the need for features to allow intruding wildlife the ability to escape. And yet a third commented that they were a requirement, and especially in light with the ancestral hunting and gathering grounds of the local First Nations people.

My other take-away from the event was that the people manning the event were not some sort of organization hired specifically for this kind of thing. Many of the people there spoke very knowledgeably about specific details that they were investigating for the line, without giving away too much detail about the way that they were leaning. These were people directly involved in coming to some of the conclusions reached to this point. It was quite refreshing to get proper answers - in as much as they could give - rather than waffle-speak.

Dan

Even if they don't care about ecology or hunting grounds, it would have to occur to them that a train at 300 km/h hitting a moose might not be very pretty.

 

[zang]

Even if they don't care about ecology or hunting grounds, it would have to occur to them that a train at 300 km/h hitting a moose might not be very pretty.

Fences and overpasses/underpasses for fauna do wonders. Ever been to Banff?

 

[generalcanada]

???

The parking garage is over 300 metres long - why the lol?

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oh you wanna demolish the residential mid-rise building too? i mean maybe, but that would be a tough sell. i was looking at the construction site at the back. which is nowhere near enough especially when at least 3-4 tracks are required

 

[Thaboss]

Not having these trains stop at Union Station proper would be quite the own goal for this project,

I disagree. If its within walking distance with an over or underpass, the difference will be trivial.

 

[MisterF]

The folks at Metrolinx and ALTO might be letting perfect be the enemy of good.

I think Alto just hasn't finalized all the details yet and a lot of members of the forum are overthinking it.

 

[micheal_can]

Even if they don't care about ecology or hunting grounds, it would have to occur to them that a train at 300 km/h hitting a moose might not be very pretty.

And the clean up is not worth it. When my father worked for the railway, having engines come in that hit moose was a pain to clean up afterwards. The whole underside looked, well, NSFW.

 

[APTA-2048]

I disagree. If it’s within walking distance with an over or underpass, the difference will be trivial.

At the open house they also made reference to the possibility of using a moving walkway similar to an airport.

 

[scottd]

I disagree. If its within walking distance with an over or underpass, the difference will be trivial.

"Walking distance" is a vague term that changes depending on age and ability.

 

[Thaboss]

"Walking distance" is a vague term that changes depending on age and ability.

Thanks I had no idea..



Back to the overall point. The success or failure of alto will not be dictated by whether or not trains stop directly in union station or right next to union.

 

[smallspy]

I mean if the busier train hubs in Europe are accommodating both frequent intercity and regional services, we should be able to make that work here.

And yet, there are a not-inconsequential number of stations in Europe that have done just what has been mooted here - separating the high-speed and local/regional rail stations.

"Walking distance" is a vague term that changes depending on age and ability.

The one staff member who we talked with at the Open House was quite explicit that it would be no further than 1km from Union.

Which along the corridor takes you no further than Sherbourne in the east and Spadina in the west.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

And yet, there are a not-inconsequential number of stations in Europe that have done just what has been mooted here - separating the high-speed and local/regional rail stations.


The one staff member who we talked with at the Open House was quite explicit that it would be no further than 1km from Union.

Which along the corridor takes you no further than Sherbourne in the east and Spadina in the west.

Dan

What about to the north or south? The north makes sense because then they could connect the station to the Ontario Line.

 

[scottd]

Thanks I had no idea..



Back to the overall point. The success or failure of alto will not be dictated by whether or not trains stop directly in union station or right next to union.

Correct. Many people who dont have health issues or mobility issues have no idea. Its very common for people in these kinds of forums to dismiss the needs of others. I dont mean that you are doing that, my point is just that "walking distance" is a term that can mean very different things. I would prefer if there was a new term that implied walking, but also accessible distance (there actually are accessibility distance standards but nobody ever seems aware of them). When distances are too far or its too hard, people with issues stop coming and then they become even more invisible. I noticed some comments on another thread about long distances at the new Caledonia Station and I was happy to see that some remarked that there needed to be possibly a few more benches for some to rest. I think accessibility issues need to be part of the day one discussion and measure of success and being clear on what "walking distance" means is part of that.

 

[Thaboss]

Correct. Many people who dont have health issues or mobility issues have no idea. Its very common for people in these kinds of forums to dismiss the needs of others. I dont mean that you are doing that, my point is just that "walking distance" is a term that can mean very different things. I would prefer if there was a new term that implied walking, but also accessible distance (there actually are accessibility distance standards but nobody ever seems aware of them). When distances are too far or its too hard, people with issues stop coming and then they become even more invisible. I noticed some comments on another thread about long distances at the new Caledonia Station and I was happy to see that some remarked that there needed to be possibly a few more benches for some to rest. I think accessibility issues need to be part of the day one discussion and measure of success and being clear on what "walking distance" means is part of that.

If your concern, which is totally valid, is about accessibility, then my point still stands. Accessibility of alto will not be inherently defined by the station location being within or right next to union. As another commenter has already stated, it won't be more than 1km awa fron union and as someone else mentioned the possibility of using walkways.

These do not erase your concerns, but to get back to my overall point. Because in this thread many believe terminating anywhere outside of union is failure of design. I simply do not share that belief.

Ive also seen staff at say tbe up express, provide help to wheelchair users. Service such as that could bridge the gap

 

[Allandale25]

Very detailed website here by some folks advocating for the Northern route.

ALTO High speed rail citizen research

Citizen led research

altohsrcitizenresearch.ca

If you scroll down you can see a deck they put together.

Some of the key slides:

I don't really get why the Schabas quote is included because I thought he supported the southern route:

They seem to think this is the Candence alignment for the northern route:

 

[generalcanada]

Very detailed website here by some folks advocating for the Northern route.

ALTO High speed rail citizen research

Citizen led research

altohsrcitizenresearch.ca

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If you scroll down you can see a deck they put together.

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Some of the key slides:

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I don't really get why the Schabas quote is included because I thought he supported the southern route:
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They seem to think this is the Candence alignment for the northern route:

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Oh jeez this reads as pure ammunition to anyone in smaller townships to oppose the project and slow it down
The geological stuff I cant say anything about but the other studies are a little weird.
Like other than the geological stuff, everything else is just about the project not just the southern alignment.
Like how many communities in the north alignment will it pass through? 20?
Uses lots of comparisons to HS2 but none from any other nation...Little funny actually
The funniest is the idea the northern route is better because you can use local granite? Nevermind the question they have yet to decide on Concrete ballast, dont they need to be like specially created?