Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[nfitz]

Ottawa VIA station is a great station building. It's just in a terrible location.

Even in the 1980s it seemed very convenient - right on the transitway, only 4 or 5 stations from downtown. Far more convenient than the rather remote bus station. I'm not sure putting it back where it was is any better ... especially having to cross an annoying intersection to get to the subway at Rideau.

 

[StreetcarRider]

While I'm busy sharing controversial opinions, Toronto does need the Alto to stop at Union Station eventually, but I'm starting to like the idea of East Harbour as the INITIAL Toronto terminus UNTIL somebody plans the westward extension(s). I would be happy for Alto to save the budget for a Toronto station until everybody is ready to properly sort out Union Station for both eastbound and westbound high-speed operations.

East Harbour would be so efficient as the interim solution. Alto would barely have to build any new infrastructure and could instead rent from Metrolinx. If another approach makes sense in the future once Union Station is getting sorted out, then new things can be built at that time.

I think part of the reason we're all dreaming big dreams is because Alto's current PR strategy is to seem totally open to all ideas while the consultations are ongoing. Coming into downtown Ottawa? Sure, let's consider it! Extending to Windsor? Happy to discuss another phase! Nothing is off the table! We're open-minded and listening! I was honestly surprised to see the Alto website acknowledge that Montreal needs another tunnel under the mountain, rather than making it sound like a discussion point.

Anyway, once everybody has had their say in the next few months, including my little opinions, somebody in the environs of CPDQ Infra is probably going to land some real-talk on us and it's probably going to be highly efficient, like they did with the REM. Which could perhaps be a good thing.

 

[nfitz]

I doubt there's much room at East Harbour unless trains immediately depart and arrive at the last second.. There's no indication that they are looking at anything other than near Union Station. Whether that be Yonge, or Spadina at the tracks, underneath the existing station, or simply using the current VIA platforms I don't know.

Even temporarily at East Harbour I don't see ... if it is used, nothing precludes the train then going into Union on the existing VIA platforms; it's got to go through it anyhow from time-to-time.

 

[generalcanada]

I doubt there's much room at East Harbour unless trains immediately depart and arrive at the last second.. There's no indication that they are looking at anything other than near Union Station. Whether that be Yonge, or Spadina at the tracks, underneath the existing station, or simply using the current VIA platforms I don't know.

Even temporarily at East Harbour I don't see ... if it is used, nothing precludes the train then going into Union on the existing VIA platforms; it's got to go through it anyhow from time-to-time.

I mean thats what Go trains do? is there any thought to not doing long dwell times? are we talking 1 minute per stop? or 15 minutes?

 

[crs1026]

I couldn't resist playing with Google maps to try and find 42,000 m2 of space.

It happens that the Bathurst GO yard is almost exactly that area.

Just saying.

- Paul

PS - For comparison, the Union Station trainshed is about 34,000 m2.

 

[McGillicuddy]

I mean thats what Go trains do? is there any thought to not doing long dwell times? are we talking 1 minute per stop? or 15 minutes?

Given that Toronto will exclusively be a terminus for ALTO, I would count on dwell times of at least 30-45 minutes. (Arrive, disembark, clean and restock, embark, depart, with "disembark" and "embark" at a fairly leisurely pace given the clientele.)

 

[nfitz]

I couldn't resist playing with Google maps to try and find 42,000 m2 of space.

While that may be the space they need for non-urban areas, they aren't going to need that in downtown locations. You won't see 40,000 m² at the old Ottawa station site they are considering either. Or in downtown Montreal. Sure, Peterborough if they bypass downtown, and Kingston if they run through somewhere like Sydenham.

 

[micheal_can]

I'm not suggesting it would be a substantial number of passengers but there are flights in/out of YOW and YUL that the other doesn't entirely service and ALTO would replace any of those connecting YOW<->YUL flights otherwise.

There have been times i've tried going to Ottawa from wherever and the only option was via YUL where I then took VIA rest of the way, or vice versa. ALTO would make that easier regardless of where the station is.

One thing you may be missing but so far, ALTO is not going near any of the 3 airports. I am guessing that Ottawa isn't going to be the outlier.

 

[Mihairokov]

Ottawa VIA station is a great station building. It's just in a terrible location.

I'd actually be OK with keeping it though with a few upgrades - an enclosed connection to the LRT, expanded parking, and enhanced pedestrian connections (including a new south pedestrian entrance).

They really missed the boat on integrating the LRT station better. I'm sure there's a reason why it is where it is but it seems so much smarter to build it between the two looping overpasses north of Tremblay Station so that it can have a south entrance to VIA and a north entrance to Max Keeping Bridge.

Red is pathing to/from LRT and then to/from Tremblay to Trainyards. South pathing can be elevated or tunneled. Yellow is LRT station location. Grey is either plaza or new build, partially covered or with a roof extension from VIA. Would actually just keep the traffic loop but spread out rideshare and bus loading so it's not focused directly in front of VIA. Inspiration for grey plaza area would be something like Munich Airport.

These things cost money, though, so we can't have them.

One thing you may be missing but so far, ALTO is not going near any of the 3 airports. I am guessing that Ottawa isn't going to be the outlier.

I don't believe i'm missing anything. It's been broadly assumed that if Ottawa Station isn't at Tremblay it may be down in Greenboro, which for all intents and purposes may as well be a YOW station at that stage. Perhaps there's a new presumed pathing i'm not aware of as I took a holiday break.

I'm not saying ALTO needs to be near airport(s) but it may work out that way for Ottawa. It'll feed into the suburban nature of that city, anyway.

Just a lowly Torontonian here but I adore the current Ottawa train station. I like it better than Montreal's Gare Centrale or Lucien L'Allier.

I like Ottawa Tremblay a lot but there's no way it's "better" in any facet than Gare Centrale. Tremblay Station has great bones for a very good station, it's just in the middle of nowhere relatively-speaking. Without a pedestrian connection to Trainyards the only retail within any sort of distance is a sometimes-open, sometimes-closed coffee bar within the station. If they could add a restaurant or some kind of food option it would be much appreciated.

 

[reaperexpress]

They really missed the boat on integrating the LRT station better. I'm sure there's a reason why it is where it is but it seems so much smarter to build it between the two looping overpasses north of Tremblay Station so that it can have a south entrance to VIA and a north entrance to Max Keeping Bridge.

View attachment 710066

Red is pathing to/from LRT and then to/from Tremblay to Trainyards. South pathing can be elevated or tunneled. Yellow is LRT station location. Grey is either plaza or new build, partially covered or with a roof extension from VIA. Would actually just keep the traffic loop but spread out rideshare and bus loading so it's not focused directly in front of VIA. Inspiration for grey plaza area would be something like Munich Airport.

That's where the original Transitway station was.

It sucked because you always needed to cross the crazy pickup/dropoff lanes and bus lanes in front of the station to get between the OC Transpo station and the Via Rail station. The current location is much better since it allows people to connect between the stations without crossing the main roadways.

 

[legoswmonkey]

It's been broadly assumed that if Ottawa Station isn't at Tremblay it may be down in Greenboro, which for all intents and purposes may as well be a YOW station at that stage. Perhaps there's a new presumed pathing i'm not aware of as I took a holiday break.

It's not a guarantee that the station is placed there, but Alto's consultation map includes darker colouring showing the locations under consideration. Ottawa's bubble goes nowhere near Greenboro, and is clearly an ellipse drawn between Parliament and Tremblay. Montreal shows they're aiming for a circle including Gare Centrale and Lucien L'Allier downtown, and then between De La Concorde and the highway in Laval.

 

[McGillicuddy]

One other point worth internalizing: Ottawa Station has multiple heritage designations, which make it an expensive pain in the butt to alter the station's major architectural elements.

Part of the reason why the LRT has this awkward partially-covered walkway leading toward the station is that they didn't want to deal with the fuss around altering the architecture or the massing along the building's principal facade.

 

[micheal_can]

One other point worth internalizing: Ottawa Station has multiple heritage designations, which make it an expensive pain in the butt to alter the station's major architectural elements.

Part of the reason why the LRT has this awkward partially-covered walkway leading toward the station is that they didn't want to deal with the fuss around altering the architecture or the massing along the building's principal facade.

If the platforms and tracks to it are underground, what would they need to do to the facade?From outside, there would not need to be any changes.

 

[McGillicuddy]

We are discussing the current Ottawa Station, not the one downtown.

 

[micheal_can]

We are discussing the current Ottawa Station, not the one downtown.

Ah. Sorry for the confusion.