Finch West Line 6 LRT

[reaperexpress]

Fair point, I was thinking that snow cleared from the tram ROW would accumulate between the raised tram ROW curb and the car lane, and some of the snow cleared from the car lane might end up on the tram ROW.

Snow doesn't need to be cleared from the tram ROW other than at switches (which are supposed to clear themselves with the switch heaters*). As with railways, the tram itself keeps the snow from getting too deep. A tram is only 2.6m wide so if you have a 3.0m tram lane with a 0.8m buffer that's already a metre where you can leave the small amount of snow that gets pushed to that side of the tram. If we are talking about high speeds on the tram line there should really be a buffer anyway, potentially with fencing.

* key word "supposed to", given that the switch heaters on Finch have been failing a lot recently

I have yet to see one car lane in each direction for a tram on a raised ROW in a similar winter climate.

Waterloo, Helsinki and Tallinn all have road segments with one car lane in each direction for a tram on a raised ROW in a similar winter climate. What cities did you look at?

 

[urbanclient]

Waterloo, Helsinki and Tallinn all have road segments with one car lane in each direction for a tram on a raised ROW in a similar winter climate. What cities did you look at?

Good find, I supposed it was possible. Just wasn't sure where. I looked at Moscow, where trams can be found on non-raised ROW in inner-city corridors. And I meant to say raised median ROW, but I don't think that makes a difference in this case. Either way, I don't think it's very feasible to have 50, 60+ km/h stroads have only one car lane in each direction. Human geography is so different in Toronto.

Also don't shoot me, but isn't the Waterloo LRT not on a raised median ROW in areas that it is in the median? Although there does appear to be a curb separating the tram from the car lane, the tram row itself is at the same level as the adjacent car lanes. I would assume this helps with snow clearing. I haven't ever tried or even seen ION in person.

 

[reaperexpress]

Hard to think of examples off the top of my head but i have done so for Paris T9, ION segments, 6 FW, and CTrain Blue segments.
For the sake of my sanity i'm just screenshotting. UT can't copy paste from my spreadsheet.

Feel free to suggest LRT lines for me to measure.

View attachment 709894

Takeaways:
- CTrain Blue manages the downtown segment, with far more traffic signals, shorter stop spacing, and basically no significant barriers (but no car traffic) faster than 6 finch west.
- Paris T9 handily beats 6 Finch West with similar situation.
- ION Willis Way to Mill manages to handily beat 6 Finch West with perhaps even worse separation than 6 FW as some of this includes curbside. Although ION has higher spacing, it also has much, much more turns and traffic lights.

Thanks for this! I'll copy the data into my own spreadsheet so I can play around with it.

"Faster than 6 Finch West" is not interesting to me - pretty much everything is faster than 6 Finch West. What I'm much more interested in is how the best case scenario for a median ROW compares to the best case scenario for other ROW types. I see the C-Train averages 43 km/h from Bow Valley College to McKnight-Westwind, so it is in fact possible to achieve rapid transit speeds in the median of a road, as long as there are concrete barriers, railway crossing gates and two-stage pedestrian crossings. Interesting to see that the line only has 2-stage ped crossings rather than the 3-stage crossings more common in the Netherlands.

 

[urbanclient]

I see the C-Train averages 43 km/h from Bow Valley College to McKnight-Westwind, so it is in fact possible to achieve rapid transit speeds in the median of a road, as long as there are concrete barriers, railway crossing gates and two-stage pedestrian crossings.

Yes, and on the off chance anyone didn't know already, that section is mostly in the median of what could be a 10 to 12 lane wide road. Guesstimate around 36 to 45 metres wide curb-to-curb like Allen Road.

 

[dullturtle06]

Good find, I supposed it was possible. Just wasn't sure where. I looked at Moscow, where trams can be found on non-raised ROW in inner-city corridors. And I meant to say raised median ROW, but I don't think that makes a difference in this case. Either way, I don't think it's very feasible to have 50, 60+ km/h stroads have only one car lane in each direction. Human geography is so different in Toronto.

Also don't shoot me, but isn't the Waterloo LRT not on a raised median ROW in areas that it is in the median? Although there does appear to be a curb separating the tram from the car lane, the tram row itself is at the same level as the adjacent car lanes. I would assume this helps with snow clearing. I haven't ever tried or even seen ION in person.

View attachment 709905

*EDIT, now that I'm watching video of Helsinki and Tallinn tram, I am not seeing any raised median ROWs like Line 6 Finch West (so far)... Can someone point me to a photo or video?

 

[urbanclient]

[...]

The median ROW here doesn't appear to be raised to me. The near side almost looks like it's raised, but on street view, switching back and forth between west and eastbound lanes, you can see the far side is actually a thin raised curb on both sides; the tram ROW itself is not raised higher than the adjacent asphalt by any significant amount, if at all.

 

[reaperexpress]

View attachment 709914
The median ROW here doesn't appear to be raised to me. The near side almost looks like it's raised, but on street view, switching back and forth between west and eastbound lanes, you can see the far side is actually a thin raised curb on both sides; the tram ROW itself is not raised higher than the adjacent asphalt by any significant amount, if at all.

View attachment 709915

And why can't we do that in Toronto?

 

[urbanclient]

And why can't we do that in Toronto?

If anything, it's what we should do in Toronto, to make construction cheaper (and snow clearing cheaper/easier?)

 

[Rainforest]

Based on my observations of delay sources on Finch, if they eliminate the speed restrictions at intersections/platforms and improve the TSP they should be able achieve Metrolinx's original 34-minute schedule, which is an 18 km/h average. That's faster than the bus, but still far short of any subway line. Eliminating a few stops could maybe get it down to around 31 minutes (20 km/h). The question then becomes whether a 20 km/h average is fast enough for a line that costs billions of dollars.

Even that is better than nothing. At least, the residents of Finch West would know that their transit has slightly improved, rather than became worse.

Is 20 kph enough to justify LRT construction in the other corridors? I'd say, need to do better than 20 kph for that.

If they had built the line in the Finch hydro corridor, it easily could have averaged over 30 km/h with level crossings where it intersects other roads. In that case the line would have provided much greater benefit to the people of northwest Toronto who currently need to spend a ridiculously long time on the tram/bus/subway to get to their workplaces, appointments, etc.

The existing Finch LRT only runs parallel to the hydro corridor for 3 km, from Keele to Hwy 400. After that, the hydro corridor swings sharply to the south-west.

Potentially, an eastern extension towards Yonge (and past Yonge?) could use the corridor. However, would have to deal with:
- Reluctance on the part of Hydro who does not want to deal with LRT when they need to repair their lines
- Additional safety concerns; what happens if a hydro wire falls on the rail?
- Opposition of the residents whose houses are located right next to the hydro corridor
- Opposition of other residents who live south of Finch and will complain that the LRT is too far from them
- G Ross Lord pond east of Dufferin; the wires just run over, but the LRT would need a bridge or a diversion

 

[doady]

lol wrong. The finch 36 doesn’t come every two minutes but nice try. Especially not the ones that have to run when the LRT is broken or not running and end up blocking the reduced lane ways that motorists now have to contend with because literally everyone at Metrolinx is incapable.

We are not talking about 36 Finch vs. BRT. We are talking about LRT vs. BRT. If LRT runs every 6 minutes, bus would need 2 minutes to match that.

36 Finch doesn't run 2 minutes, but you don't build BRT on Finch to match the ridership of the 36 Finch. You build BRT with the expectation that the ridership will be higher the 36 Finch, and for higher ridership the frequency would also need to be higher, unless they use double articulated buses.

 

[reaperexpress]

The existing Finch LRT only runs parallel to the hydro corridor for 3 km, from Keele to Hwy 400. After that, the hydro corridor swings sharply to the south-west.

Potentially, an eastern extension towards Yonge (and past Yonge?) could use the corridor. However, would have to deal with:
- Reluctance on the part of Hydro who does not want to deal with LRT when they need to repair their lines
- Additional safety concerns; what happens if a hydro wire falls on the rail?
- Opposition of the residents whose houses are located right next to the hydro corridor
- Opposition of other residents who live south of Finch and will complain that the LRT is too far from them
- G Ross Lord pond east of Dufferin; the wires just run over, but the LRT would need a bridge or a diversion

Yeah I think those 3 km would have been better off in the hydro corridor to save a few minutes. Obviously it's too late now.

I don't think the eastern extension makes sense in general. It's 6 km from Finch West station to Finch Station, but it's only 4 km from Sheppard West station to Sheppard-Yonge station. So it's probably worth spending a bit extra to extend the Sheppard Subway west rather than extending the Finch LRT east.

 

[lastcommodore]

Thanks for this! I'll copy the data into my own spreadsheet so I can play around with it.

Oop. Hope I am not too late but I can just toss you the data.

Here's a link to my spreadsheet full of transit data I record, data for this is on sheet "Speeds, HOT". I was going to upload it to Google Drive to be viewable in browser but I don't have a google account on my e-mail and google verification thing just hung up on me when I tried to sign up... Thanks, google.

At @a2z 's suggestion I have added the Frankfurt U2. It's cut off but the note is that the tram dwells for 60s swapping operators, and I don't think it's particularly relevant.

 

[urbanclient]

There are many streets that can accommodate this configuration city-wide. Basically every major arterial in Etobicoke, Scarborough, and North York has the space.

And the St. Clair streetcar is renowned for its slow speeds, sometimes slower than the bus replacement. Sound familiar? The St. Clair example is also dubious because the sidewalks are narrow, the setbacks and non-sidewalk boulevards often non-existent. This wouldn't fly in a future tram project in Toronto. It's also over a century old. Two decades ago, it was politically acceptable for the whole ROW to get torn up for slightly more grade separation because the line already existed. It would not be acceptable for a non-streetcar road to be torn up for a new project that would induce setback zoning violations along the entire corridor.

 

[Jaye101]

And the St. Clair streetcar is renowned for its slow speeds, sometimes slower than the bus replacement. Sound familiar? The St. Clair example is also dubious because the sidewalks are narrow, the setbacks and non-sidewalk boulevards often non-existent. This wouldn't fly in a future tram project in Toronto. It's also over a century old. Two decades ago, it was politically acceptable for the whole ROW to get torn up for slightly more grade separation because the line already existed. It would not be acceptable for a non-streetcar road to be torn up for a new project that would induce setback zoning violations along the entire corridor.

As someone who takes the 512 daily. It's actually pretty good. And when there are replacement buses ridership completely collapses. The difference is stark, people simply take alternative routes because they know it will be slower.

After the route opened it was pretty slow, but after some changes made by Andy Byford's team it improved a lot. After the pandemic the route became virtually unusable, it was as though they forgot every lesson they learned managing the route. It also seems like they do a lot of training along the route.

Last year the TTC launched a Bunching and Gapping pilot project (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-259672.pdf) which worked really well for the route imo. and in fact, the 512 St Clair's average speed is now slightly faster than the Finch West LRT.

St Clair also probably has some of the widest sidewalks in the city between blocks, but the choice was made to retain left turning lanes at the expense of sidewalk width at intersections some of which are unacceptably narrow. Hopefully this is mitigated when St Clair is rebuilt.

The St Clair ROW didn't just offer slightly more grade separation it's important to remember many stops boarded curbside requiring 2 lanes of traffic to stop and cars often turned left infront of streetcars. The whole street was rebuilt, the sewers, the gas lines, hydro wires, the road bed, the tracks, the sidewalks. It was a nightmare.

The line was completed in 2010 and by 2012 homes along the route were worth 35 to 40% more.

Cars travel faster than before, streetcars are faster and more reliable. And the ROW is likely responsible for more economic development than any other project in the city since Line 4. The real estate values along the route are some of the most appreciated in the country since its completion, and the route has spurred some of the most high end residential projects in the city's history.

The project allowed the city to create a unique urban environment on St Clair, just as they had done on Spadina years earlier. Unique shelters, light poles, street furniture etc. You couldn't mistake these streets with anywhere else.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for Finch, I think there were a lot of missed opportunities to create a unique urban experience on the route. And considering the 512 is currently faster than the Finch West LRT I don't doubt the TTC, with over 100 years of experience building and rebuilding Light rail lines, would have done a far better job.

That said, St Clair is still too slow. And it's imperative that the city implements full signal priority as soon as possible.

 

[urbanclient]

As someone who takes the 512 daily. It's actually pretty good. And when there are replacement buses ridership completely collapses. The difference is stark, people simply take alternative routes because they know it will be slower.

After the route opened it was pretty slow, but after some changes made by Andy Byford's team it improved a lot. After the pandemic the route became virtually unusable, it was as though they forgot every lesson they learned managing the route. It also seems like they do a lot of training along the route.

Last year the TTC launched a Bunching and Gapping pilot project (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-259672.pdf) which worked really well for the route imo. and in fact, the 512 St Clair's average speed is now slightly faster than the Finch West LRT.

St Clair also probably has some of the widest sidewalks in the city between blocks, but the choice was made to retain left turning lanes at the expense of sidewalk width at intersections some of which are unacceptably narrow. Hopefully this is mitigated when St Clair is rebuilt.

The St Clair ROW didn't just offer slightly more grade separation it's important to remember many stops boarded curbside requiring 2 lanes of traffic to stop and cars often turned left infront of streetcars. The whole street was rebuilt, the sewers, the gas lines, hydro wires, the road bed, the tracks, the sidewalks. It was a nightmare.

The line was completed in 2010 and by 2012 homes along the route were worth 35 to 40% more.

Cars travel faster than before, streetcars are faster and more reliable. And the ROW is likely responsible for more economic development than any other project in the city since Line 4. The real estate values along the route are some of the most appreciated in the country since its completion, and the route has spurred some of the most high end residential projects in the city's history.

The project allowed the city to create a unique urban environment on St Clair, just as they had done on Spadina years earlier. Unique shelters, light poles, street furniture etc. You couldn't mistake these streets with anywhere else.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for Finch, I think there were a lot of missed opportunities to create a unique urban experience on the route. And considering the 512 is currently faster than the Finch West LRT I don't doubt the TTC, with over 100 years of experience building and rebuilding Light rail lines, would have done a far better job.

That said, St Clair is still too slow. And it's imperative that the city implements full signal priority as soon as possible.

I admit, St. Clair is actually better than Line 6, but I didn't want to throw too many caveats in the previous post so as to weaken the point. St. Clair is 2 km from the 'official' downtown, and some would argue it is downtown.

It's my hypothesis that there are no corridors that warrant an upgrade to tram that are also currently wide enough to fit a tram. Unless one or more of the following happens to the corridor: infeasible changes that would violate municipal code and/or zoning by-laws, and/or expropriation.

2024 TTC Daily Bus Boardings:
Finch East (39 + 939) — 43,048
Lawrence West (52 + 952) — 42,077
Dufferin (29 + 929) — 40,750
Finch West (36) — 39,541
Jane (35 + 935) — 37,464
Wilson (96 + 996) — 34,469
Lawrence East (54 + 954) — 33,594
Don Mills (25 + 925) — 32,705
Eglinton West (32) — 32,221
Markham Road (102 + 902) — 31,659
Steeles West (60 + 960) — 30,141
York Mills (95 + 995) — 25,832
Sheppard West (84 + 984) — 23,509
Sheppard East (85 + 985) — 22,490
Steeles East (53 + 953) — 20,859

To the perennially pro-LRT crowd I ask: where can we find ROWs wide enough, and with boardings per km high enough to support an upgrade to tram in the City of Toronto?

I hear people drone on about how great LRTs are, how they definitely wOrK In oThEr cItIeS, while conveniently ignoring cities entirely devoid of them such as New York City and most metro-having cities in Mainland China (34 out of 46 have metro, but no tram). Or nearly entirely devoid of them like Tokyo or London, with 17.2 and 28 km respectively to Toronto's 93.3 km, soon to be 100+ km.

The mere existence of larger cities that have built or are still building tram does not prove that Toronto should continue building trams, especially in the short term. The very same argument can be made against trams when you consider cities as big or bigger that have no trams. Both arguments are weak and subject to selection bias and false equivalences to varying degrees. That trams may 'work' in other cities does not prove their cost-effectiveness in Toronto when the streets are so narrow, among other urban-morphological and political constraints.

So where exactly are future trams supposed to 'work' beyond Lines 5, 6 and Waterfront? I support the completion of tram projects at hand, but I don't support any further projects. And if my hypothesis is correct, then my support is irrelevant when adding trams to Toronto streets is so physically and politically infeasible.

Street ROW widths property line to property line: https://map.toronto.ca/torontomaps/ Feature Filter>Properties>Property Parcel; Measurement