VIA Rail

[Trackside_Treasure]

Maybe I haven’t quite followed properly: what is the reason for adding the F40 locomotive?

As a backup HEP source. I'm keeping track, pun intended, to see if the precious F40's are reserved for Sets which have had HEP problems recently - the problem children, as it were.

 

[Bordercollie]

As a backup HEP source. I'm keeping track, pun intended, to see if the precious F40's are reserved for Sets which have had HEP problems recently - the problem children, as it were.

They should cover the side panels so that there is less exposure to the elements

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

They should cover the side panels so that there is less exposure to the elements

I have a Granny-square afghan that's really warm that I'm not using. Anyone else?

 

[Bojaxs]

Hopefully this will teach VIA not to simply "piggyback" off of whatever Amtrak procures for their own fleet.

VIA probably should have gotten their locomotives from Wabtec (former MotivePower). GO's locomotives appear to have fewer issues in the colder weather.

I'm not suggesting VIA should have gotten MP54AC's, but I'm sure Wabtec could have worked with them to develop something more suited to their needs and would have held up much better in the colder temperatures.

 

[Allandale25]

 

[Bordercollie]

Hopefully this will teach VIA not to simply "piggyback" off of whatever Amtrak procures for their own fleet.

VIA probably should have gotten their locomotives from Wabtec (former MotivePower). GO's locomotives appear to have fewer issues in the colder weather.

I'm not suggesting VIA should have gotten MP54AC's, but I'm sure Wabtec could have worked with them to develop something more suited to their needs and would have held up much better in the colder temperatures.

The mp54ph is no longer in production. Nor do they build passenger cars

So you would have bought cars from Siemens with locomotives from another manufacturer and restart production for only a handful of units. And mishmash them together to make it work.

Even go transit is refurbising old locomotives that they sold to California after buying them back. Don't you think that if mpi could restart production at a reasonable cost GO would have placed another order for MP54PH.

Also because these behemoth of a locomotive is so heavy it cannot be used in every route. So you would need to maintain a legacy fleet just for Sarnia.

Hopefully for the LD fleet they decide to go with seperate HEP generators. And not with Siemens.

 

[Bojaxs]

The mp54ph is no longer in production. Nor do they build passenger cars

Not trying to derail this thread, while MotivePower may be gone, Wabtec still has the ability to build MPI locomotives. If GO were to place a big enough order, they'd be foolish to turn them away. As you stated later in your post, it probably has more to do with high costs than their inability to restart the manufacturing process.

So you would have bought cars from Siemens with locomotives from another manufacturer and restart production for only a handful of units. And mishmash them together to make it work.

I think if it became clear that Siemens locomotives wouldn't work in the cold weather, then they (VIA) wouldn't have purchased cars from them either.

Yes, I guess what I'm suggesting is that Wabtec would design & make a locomotive/HEP & car setup designed specifically for the Canadian market like VIA & ONR and challenge the Siemens Venture trainsets within Canada. Whether such a locomotive & car setup would be able to find market share in America? Probably not. I reckon they would probably get beat out by Siemens.

I guess what I'm asking is why does the Siemens Charger have as absolute monopoly on passenger rail in North America? Because Chargers that fare well in the southern portions of America don't seem to fare well in Canadian winters, and it's not like there are any viable alternatives available for the Charger.

 

[Bordercollie]

Not trying to derail this thread, while MotivePower may be gone, Wabtec still has the ability to build MPI locomotives. If GO were to place a big enough order, they'd be foolish to turn them away. As you stated later in your post, it probably has more to do with high costs than their inability to restart the manufacturing process.



I think if it became clear that Siemens locomotives wouldn't work in the cold weather, then they (VIA) wouldn't have purchased cars from them either.

Yes, I guess what I'm suggesting is that Wabtec would design & make a locomotive/HEP & car setup designed specifically for the Canadian market like VIA & ONR and challenge the Siemens Venture trainsets within Canada. Whether such a locomotive & car setup would be able to find market share in America? Probably not. I reckon they would probably get beat out by Siemens.

I guess what I'm asking is why does the Siemens Charger have as absolute monopoly on passenger rail in North America? Because Chargers that fare well in the southern portions of America don't seem to fare well in Canadian winters, and it's not like there are any viable alternatives available for the Charger.

I don't know what market is left in Canada once the LD fleet is delivered.

The polar bear Express probably could benefit from new equipment, but other than that there isn't much left.

Let's see how well those made in China bi levels do in Montreal. Good luck lasting 50 years.

 

[cplchanb]

I don't know what market is left in Canada once the LD fleet is delivered.

The polar bear Express probably could benefit from new equipment, but other than that there isn't much left.

Let's see how well those made in China bi levels do in Montreal. Good luck lasting 50 years.

And this is why theres planned obsolescence instead of scraping every last minute of life out of the trains like they are doing for the LD fleet. Continuing to replace every couple decades will keep the manpower here in Canada instead of a one and done job every 2 generations. That is why in Japan they are able to have a fledging rail industry

 

[Bojaxs]

Let's see how well those made in China bi levels do in Montreal. Good luck lasting 50 years.

I rode on one during my last trip to Montréal. They're absolutely awful! Very cheap interiors, and the seats are very close to each other. If you're over 5'10" your knees will be touching the back of the seat in front of you. If you're someone who is accustomed to the Bombardier Bi-levels, you'll absolutely hate them! I know I did.

 

[Urban Sky]

And this is why theres planned obsolescence instead of scraping every last minute of life out of the trains like they are doing for the LD fleet. Continuing to replace every couple decades will keep the manpower here in Canada instead of a one and done job every 2 generations. That is why in Japan they are able to have a fledging rail industry

Shorter equipment lifecycle spans might be one very minor factor explaining the thriving rail rolling stock industry in Japan, but the real reason is of course the sheer Economies of Scale Japan enjoys compared to Canada:

Metric	Canada	Japan	(vs. Canada)
Population (2024)	41,289,000	123,975,000	3.0 times
Rail Ridership (2019, in million)	106.9	25,201	236 times
Rail Ridership (2024, in million passenger-km)	1,557	404,334	259 times

 

[reaperexpress]

Shorter equipment lifecycle spans might be one very minor factor explaining the thriving rail rolling stock industry in Japan, but the real reason is of course the sheer Economies of Scale Japan enjoys compared to Canada:

Metric	Canada	Japan	(vs. Canada)
Population (2024)	41,289,000	123,975,000	3.0 times
Rail Ridership (2019, in million)	106.9	25,201	236 times
Rail Ridership (2024, in million passenger-km)	1,557	404,334	259 times

You'd think that with so many trains they produce huge numbers of each train type, but they actually have such a ridiculous number of different train models that they actually don't produce that many of each type. Limited Express trains are especially bespoke - companies often develop a custom design only to build a handful of trainsets.

Via has 32 Charger locomotives and 160 Venture coaches.
In total Siemens is building 467 Chargers and 937 Ventures.
Here are some recent Japanese train models that are less common than Via Rail's Siemens Ventures:

Nippon Sharyo / J-TREC 3100 and 3200 series (150 vehicles), 2019

Kinki Sharyo 8A, 1A and 1B series: (149 vehicles), 2024

Nippon Sharyo / J-TREC 5000 series (130 vehicles), 2019:

Kawasaki GV-E400 and H100: (123 vehicles), 2019

Nippon Sharyo 9500 series (104 vehicles), 2019

J-TREC 5000 series (100 vehicles), 2017

Hitachi 2000 and 2300 series: (88 vehicles), 2024

Kinki Sharyo 8000 series: (72 vehicles), 2020

Nippon Sharyo HC85: (68 vehicles), 2022

Hitachi 001 series: (56 vehicles), 2018

J-TREC 2000 series (40 vehicles), 2026

The Nippon Sharyo DMU is one of the rarest trains in North America with only 36 units built (18 for Union Pearson Express and 18 for SMART), but there are Japanese models even rarer than that:

Kawasaki 500 series (33 vehicles), 2017

Nippon Sharyo 80000 series (30 vehicles), 2025

Kinki Sharyo 5700 series: (28 vehicles), 2015

Hitachi N100 series (24 vehicles), 2023

Kinki Sharyo 7000 series: (18 vehicles), 2025

Kawasaki/Hitachi E261: (16 vehicles), 2019

Nippon Sharyo 70000 Series GSE: (14 vehicles), 2018

 

[smallspy]

All true, what I was trying to say (badly) was whether a leading F40 could activate the blended braking ( which I don't claim to understand in detail) versus simply controlling the trainset automatic brake via brakeline pressure. The brakes still work, but differently.

Blended braking can be controlled by the 27-pin MU. But as the leading F40 is not able to communicate via the MU and COMM circuits to the rest of the train, then no, it will not activate the blended braking on the training Charger.

Blended braking is activated on the leading loco in this case via the 30CDW brake valve on the desktop and an auxiliary valve located downstream of it who's name currently escapes me.

I do understand that there is no control of the independent brake from the cabcar end. That may not matter when the F40 is pulling, but would possibly matter when it is shoving.

- Paul

There is not, but then again the independent is very, very seldom used in passenger train service. There is no need to bunch up the slack on a small train, and especially on something configured as a fixed consist such as the Chargers and Ventures.

According to groups.io (Lion Liu) the F40 will be dead in tow when at the rear, and was chosen as opposed to P42 due to being lighter.

The weight difference is pretty negligible now that the F40s have been rebuilt with separate HEP engines. But even when new the weight difference was only 8000 pounds, which is not much on a device weighing 260,000 pounds.

But I suspect that the real reason is because the F40s have a separate HEP engine and system as opposed to the combined one of the P42s. This will save on fuel and wear-and-tear, as an F40 being towed does not need to have its main engine running, just the HEP one.

Siemens Chargers are "kaput" in colder climates.

It wasn't just the Chargers - a number of trains over the past week suffered issues with the HEP system giving out in the middle of runs, including a couple powered by P42s and F40s..

Most of the trains operating legacy equipment have been configured with locos at both ends for the past while, so it was easy enough to transfer the HEP to the other loco. But the Siemens sets only have the one loco per set, so this is being done as a back-up.

I've heard some folks (who know more than I do) suggest that the way the Chargers are designed, too much of the inner mechanics and electronics are too exposed to outside temperatures.

This is absolutely not the case. If anything, in some ways the Chargers are better insulated from the cold than the older designs.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

Blended braking can be controlled by the 27-pin MU. But as the leading F40 is not able to communicate via the MU and COMM circuits to the rest of the train, then no, it will not activate the blended braking on the training Charger.

Blended braking is activated on the leading loco in this case via the 30CDW brake valve on the desktop and an auxiliary valve located downstream of it who's name currently escapes me.


There is not, but then again the independent is very, very seldom used in passenger train service. There is no need to bunch up the slack on a small train, and especially on something configured as a fixed consist such as the Chargers and Ventures.


The weight difference is pretty negligible now that the F40s have been rebuilt with separate HEP engines. But even when new the weight difference was only 8000 pounds, which is not much on a device weighing 260,000 pounds.

But I suspect that the real reason is because the F40s have a separate HEP engine and system as opposed to the combined one of the P42s. This will save on fuel and wear-and-tear, as an F40 being towed does not need to have its main engine running, just the HEP one.


It wasn't just the Chargers - a number of trains over the past week suffered issues with the HEP system giving out in the middle of runs, including a couple powered by P42s and F40s..

Most of the trains operating legacy equipment have been configured with locos at both ends for the past while, so it was easy enough to transfer the HEP to the other loco. But the Siemens sets only have the one loco per set, so this is being done as a back-up.


This is absolutely not the case. If anything, in some ways the Chargers are better insulated from the cold than the older designs.

Dan

So as someone who seems knowledgeable and close to the issue, do you know what seems to be cause of the Venture's reliability woes? Is it cold-related? Are they any best or worse than other consists in our climate, or is that the media has them in their crosshairs? I imagine if the power or EPU on the Polar Bear Express pooped out, few beyond the Cochrane-Moosonee area would know or care.

 

[smallspy]

So as someone who seems knowledgeable and close to the issue, do you know what seems to be cause of the Venture's reliability woes? Is it cold-related? Are they any best or worse than other consists in our climate, or is that the media has them in their crosshairs? I imagine if the power or EPU on the Polar Bear Express pooped out, few beyond the Cochrane-Moosonee area would know or care.

I don't think that there are any "reliability woes" beyond the normal teething issues that occur with any new fleet - in fact, it could be argued that they have had fewer teething issues than most of the previous passenger fleets that have entered service in the past 50 years. At least, up to now - that could obviously change if something major is found that requires their wholesale withdrawal from service.

What we do have now that we haven't really before is both a larger target on VIA, more avenues for information to become disseminated (such as Facebook and forums like this), and more people willing to share the information that they are given / have access to.

But one thing that we have always had is a collective memory that only goes back far enough to complain about what is happening now. A lot of people don't remember how drawn-out the introduction of the LRCs and Rens were, nor how problematic they were for the first quarter of their service lives. Most people don't realize how much trouble VIA had to get the P42s into service.

Dan