Toronto Guildwood TOC | 192.75m | 60s | Infrastructure ON | Zeidler

[dougtoronto]

I think it's such a miss that a lot of these TOC proposals offer such meagre retail components. We are talking about thousands of new residence within walking distance of this development and a station that is slated to get high frequency service in the coming decade (don't get me started). There is unique potential to make mini neighbourhoods out of these TOC's and include a plethora of services for residents and those nearby to use, but it seems like all we get is mass produced suburban developments all over.

 

[Natika33]

I think it's such a miss that a lot of these TOC proposals offer such meagre retail components. We are talking about thousands of new residence within walking distance of this development and a station that is slated to get high frequency service in the coming decade (don't get me started). There is unique potential to make mini neighbourhoods out of these TOC's and include a plethora of services for residents and those nearby to use, but it seems like all we get is mass produced suburban developments all over.

Agreed. Were this a Japanese city, a station surrounded by this much density & future "node" potential would have some retail built into the station itself and then at least one main drag designed for restaurants, retail et cetera extending roughly towards the most logical destination for visitors to that area (in this case probably Guildwood Village Park). Oh, and it would also have a sizeable manned bike parking lot. And no, I'm not talking about Tokyo, I mean even cities as small as London. (Edit: London = Ontario one)

 

[Northern Light]

Agreed. Were this a Japanese city, a station surrounded by this much density & future "node" potential would have some retail built into the station itself and then at least one main drag designed for restaurants, retail et cetera extending roughly towards the most logical destination for visitors to that area (in this case probably Guildwood Village Park). Oh, and it would also have a sizeable manned bike parking lot. And no, I'm not talking about Tokyo, I mean even cities as small as London.

For clarity........as small as which London?

 

[Northern Light]

I think it's such a miss that a lot of these TOC proposals offer such meagre retail components. We are talking about thousands of new residence within walking distance of this development and a station that is slated to get high frequency service in the coming decade (don't get me started). There is unique potential to make mini neighbourhoods out of these TOC's and include a plethora of services for residents and those nearby to use, but it seems like all we get is mass produced suburban developments all over.

I agree; but want to add, beyond the problems I've discussed, these communities lack contextual vision.

At Guildwood, all other things being equal, on the north side of the station, we would start with retail up against Kingston Road. The bridge over the tracks does eat into the usable space. But it's where I'd want to start.

Retail adjacent to the station or any plaza (as in public square) makes sense too. As does retail to tie two sides of the station together, whether that's in a tunnel under the tracks or a deck adjacent to the bridge.

But let's skip the fancy. The problem is one of working backwards. By which I mean design should serve a set of goals.

Regular UT readers will have seen me discuss this idea in regards to Parks. You first need to know if you want a soccer field, a tennis court, a playground, or a natural area or some combination of these, before you decide on the size, shape, siting and design of a park.

The same applies when designing a neighbourhood.

"I want fewer people to choose to drive to the GO Station" is a goal.

What do you need?

Less Parking is your stick, but what are your carrots?

An on-site supermarket? Groceries on the way home.

An on-site coffee shop, no need to stop en route?

Etc etc.

Instead you have something designed around maximum units on site, ignoring those larger issues.

 

[Natika33]

For clarity........as s small as which London?

Fake London in SW Ontario. Sorry, should have specified.

 

[compaqee]

Agree with all of your other comments, but particularly this one. I have no doubt once the crosstown opens Toronto won't start another LRT project for a generation, if ever.

Densification of these suburban GO lots is great, particularly the ones with such short trips to Union. The heavy load of 1 beds seems dubious in this market however, and generally out of line with the demand one would expect in the area.

Wanted to echo the sentiment re: 1 Bed units. Given the glut of these types of units, is there a better policy/incentive to build more family-oriented units? TOC's to me should serve as neighbourhood nodes where there is an increase of attraction for activity (i.e., groceries, retail, services). What is stopping from some of these developments to create multi-level retail in podiums (for a lack of better example, mini-malls) to create third spaces for community interaction? My 2 cents, this may all be considered and be cost prohibitive or guidnace suggests demand isn't there.

 

[jmi22]

What is stopping from some of these developments to create multi-level retail in podiums (for a lack of better example, mini-malls) to create third spaces for community interaction? My 2 cents, this may all be considered and be cost prohibitive or guidnace suggests demand isn't there.

Existing typical malls and strip malls are established with high levels of parking to serve the very suburban area, and ultimately any new large sqft (particularly multi-level) shopping center with the low amount of high inconvenience parking that is typical in new tower devs would be a ghost town.

 

[compaqee]

Existing typical malls and strip malls are established with high levels of parking to serve the very suburban area, and ultimately any new large sqft (particularly multi-level) shopping center with the low amount of high inconvenience parking that is typical in new tower devs would be a ghost town.

I think my example might have overly likened it to a mall. I imagine the tower bases would have space for retail not of the big box store type, but commercial spaces for small businesses (e.g., dental, vision, cafe, restaurant, boutique goods and perhaps a grocery anchor). Thinking would be it presents a space for the condo residents and the surrounding walkable/bikeable neighborhoods and via transit could animate it and create a “meeting” space. The nodes strung along station stops would/should promote travel between the nodes to explore and shop/visit other neighborhoods via convenience of public transit. My 2 cents.

 

[Natika33]

I think my example might have overly likened it to a mall. I imagine the tower bases would have space for retail not of the big box store type, but commercial spaces for small businesses (e.g., dental, vision, cafe, restaurant, boutique goods and perhaps a grocery anchor). Thinking would be it presents a space for the condo residents and the surrounding walkable/bikeable neighborhoods and via transit could animate it and create a “meeting” space. The nodes strung along station stops would/should promote travel between the nodes to explore and shop/visit other neighborhoods via convenience of public transit. My 2 cents.

Yes, this is exactly the set-up in Japan, which is a very logical and efficient one. Each station becomes a new centre in a sense, the mini "downtown" for locals (and literally the actual downtown when you are talking about small towns) and the welcoming gateway with services/amenities for visitors (hence the orientation of the main thoroughfare towards the main tourist attraction in the area 9 times out of 10).

 

[compaqee]

Yes, this is exactly the set-up in Japan, which is a very logical and efficient one. Each station becomes a new centre in a sense, the mini "downtown" for locals (and literally the actual downtown when you are talking about small towns) and the welcoming gateway with services/amenities for visitors (hence the orientation of the main thoroughfare towards the main tourist attraction in the area 9 times out of 10).

Love it. I suppose the question is, what is preventing or disincentivizing us to build in this manner? Policy? Zoning? Political will? It seems straightforward. With Scarborough GO's masterplan just two stops west, these TOC buildouts seems to be the 'hill-to-die-on' to demonstrate what Japan enjoys can be done in Toronto as well? Cheers