Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[lrt's friend]

The Canadian Northern Railway alignment.

Not just any country road, but Highway 17, the main road between Ottawa and Montreal until the mid 1970s when Highway 417 was completed.

The Canadian Northern alignment is out of the question. It was abandoned in 1939 and former Highway 17 runs on parts of that right of way, at least to Rockland.

It is the Canadian Pacific alignment that makes more sense. It was owned by VIA until 2021 when it was transferred for trail use. Its right of way is intact all the way to the Quebec border if not all the way to existing trackage in Rigaud.

Nevertheless, the Ottawa discussion group is concerned that rail will stop in Laval instead of Dorval, where many Ottawa residents already go using VIA to reach PET airport flights.

 

[nfitz]

It is the Canadian Pacific alignment that makes more sense. It was owned by VIA until 2021 when it was transferred for trail use. Its right of way is intact all the way to the Quebec border if not all the way to existing trackage in Rigaud.

It was transferred to trail while VIA still owned (most) of it. I believe from our discussion in this or the VIA Rail thread, that VIA sold it in 2024 or 2025 (after owning it for decades) after it was clearly not possibly going to be used. More VIA incontinence.

(I know what I said)

 

[kEiThZ]

As a side point ...the last couple pages has shown a stunning amount of ignorance when it comes to the purpose of HSR from a federal perspective.

Every discussion on HSR goes like this. People who take VIA from Toronto to Montreal like once a year for race weekend or bachelor parties jump on to ask why it's going through Ottawa. Or why they aren't adding a dozen GTA stations. No understanding they aren't the target audience.

 

[GrayLake]

So why it’s not foolish to ignore Toronto suburbs also en route and bigger than Laval something I have pointed out many time (that you keep ignoring). Scarborough and Durham region both bigger than Laval and not on the initial map when Laval was included even going back to February.

Something some people here seem to be ignoring from my posts it’s the fact Laval the only suburb included, this is why I am puzzled when Toronto has bigger suburbs and a much bigger metropolis. If Laval included why not a suburb in Toronto? And please do not tell me it’s because Toronto doesn’t have other major suburb also en route.

I think Peterborough is considered the "GTA East" stop. For most trips originating in Durham going to Peterborough will be faster than going to Toronto to depart.

Also, if the trains go in and out of Montreal from the same track through Laval, then somebody travelling from Ottawa to Quebec City might stop in Laval to transfer towards Quebec City and avoid going in and out of Montreal, at least in theory. Without the Laval stop this wouldn't be possible.

 

[canucks2030]

It's odd, people talk about a station in the suburbs as if every train has to stop there, which is clearly not the case. It's clear that a lot of people saying adding stations slows down trains aren't all that familiar with how high speed rail networks actually operate. Or even Via Rail for that matter. There are any number of stopping patterns that could be used, including trains that don't stop at a suburban station just like not every Via train stops at Guildwood. You can even have slower regional trains sharing tracks with faster intercity trains. A station in the east GTA suburbs makes perfect sense.


Hey now, let's not bring the Finch LRT into this.

Personally, I talked about it because currently 7 stations are planned for 1000 KM of track and two stops will be approx only 20-30KM apart depending where the stop will be in Laval. This is odd and Laval already well connected to Montréal.

Furthermore initial travel times released by Alto between Montreal and Toronto are disappointing.

Every discussion on HSR goes like this. People who take VIA from Toronto to Montreal like once a year for race weekend or bachelor parties jump on to ask why it's going through Ottawa. Or why they aren't adding a dozen GTA stations. No understanding they aren't the target audience.

I do not think anybody said that about a dozen GTA stations. However, Laval included being only 25 KM away from Downtown Montréal prompting the question why such logic doesn’t apply to the GTA with a 2nd stop (not dozen) if adding a suburb to the project was beneficial for Montréal considering Toronto a much bigger metropolis. That’s it!

Regarding Ottawa, I do not think a single person said it’s doesn’t make sense. The complaint I heard are 1) the segment Toronto -Montréal should be the first segment build instead of Montreal-Ottawa 2) some peoples are worried the trip duration will not be as fast it should have been between Montréal and Toronto because of these extras stops.

Regarding those criticisms, Montreal-Toronto would likely be too ambitious as the first segment, however, regarding the trip duration it’s true it’s underwhelming. Likely the stop in Ottawa and potentially Peterborough and Laval causing that. The fastest Via rail train 4h45 approx and the estimated travel time with HSR as per Alto 3h07. Yes, it’s faster, will be more frequent and reliable but disappointing nonetheless for such a transformative project.

The target audience is there. So many flights between these two cities, so many trains, so many buses, the demand is there and yet it’s the less beneficial segment of them all when looking at the time projections. HSR will definitely be more convenient than flying(that’s for sure), but sadly not faster. This is a valid criticism of this project considering the huge volume of travellers.

 

[MisterF]

I think Peterborough is considered the "GTA East" stop. For most trips originating in Durham going to Peterborough will be faster than going to Toronto to depart.

Also, if the trains go in and out of Montreal from the same track through Laval, then somebody travelling from Ottawa to Quebec City might stop in Laval to transfer towards Quebec City and avoid going in and out of Montreal, at least in theory. Without the Laval stop this wouldn't be possible.

Peterborough is well beyond the GTA.

Personally, I talked about it because currently 7 stations are planned for 1000 KM of track and two stops will be approx only 20-30KM apart depending where the stop will be in Laval. This is odd and Laval already well connected to Montréal.

Furthermore initial travel times released by Alto between Montreal and Toronto are disappointing.

But again, not every train has to stop at every station. There can be a variety of stopping patterns, overlapping services, etc. More stations doesn't mean longer travel times.

 

[kEiThZ]

he fastest Via rail train 4h45 approx

Fastest is not the average service. Or even a reliable time when you consider delays. Nobody who regularly uses VIA, budgets less than 5 hrs to Ottawa on or 6 hrs to Montreal from Union.

the estimated travel time with HSR as per Alto 3h07. Yes, it’s faster, will be more frequent and reliable but disappointing nonetheless for such a transformative project.

3:07 hrs is enough to be competitive with air travel door-to-door. And that's all that matters. Any gains beyond that will really require substantial returns on ridership to justify the investment.

I don't think you get this yet. Money doesn't grow on trees. And scope creep can and has killed many a rail project. This team is trying to be as disciplined as possible to ensure that something is delivered. Good on them for that. At this stage, they shouldn't be promising anything beyond the absolute bare minimum. As the business case gets developed and they have more clarity on projected ridership, they can talk about faster services, extensions, more stations, varied service patterns, etc. Doing that right now is a surefire way to get the whole thing killed.

 

[kEiThZ]

will definitely be more convenient than flying(that’s for sure), but sadly not faster.

At 3:07 hrs? It will be faster than flying.

Union Station to Billy Bishop: 15 min
Pre-boarding: 30 mins
Flight from YTZ to YUL: 75 mins (scheduled time for most Porter flights)
De-boarding: 15 mins from gate to curb to train or taxi.
REM from YUL to Gare-Centrale: 25 mins

Total: 2:40 hrs is the absolute fastest possible by air from Union station to Gare Centrale and it involves two transfers (for which I assumed zero time) in addition to the flight. 27 mins more in the absolute best case scenario and zero transfers? Just get on the train and crack open the laptop and get to work? I don't know many business travelers that would pass that up.

Oh and in reality. almost nobody gets to the airport only 30 mins before their flight leaves. If they plan an hour early, they aren't beating 3:07 hrs. If they fly out of Pearson where pre-boarding times are longer and they have a 25 mins UPE ride, or if they have luggage and they have to check-in before the bag check closes, they are most definitely not beating 3:07 hrs.

 

[canucks2030]

Fastest is not the average service. Or even a reliable time when you consider delays. Nobody who regularly uses VIA, budgets less than 5 hrs to Ottawa on or 6 hrs to Montreal from Union.



3:07 hrs is enough to be competitive with air travel door-to-door. And that's all that matters. Any gains beyond that will really require substantial returns on ridership to justify the investment.

I don't think you get this yet. Money doesn't grow on trees. And scope creep can and has killed many a rail project. This team is trying to be as disciplined as possible to ensure that something is delivered. Good on them for that. At this stage, they shouldn't be promising anything beyond the absolute bare minimum. As the business case gets developed and they have more clarity on projected ridership, they can talk about faster services, extensions, more stations, varied service patterns, etc. Doing that right now is a surefire way to get the whole thing killed.

Of course it will be competitive. I also mentioned that but it’s a fair criticism it should have been faster than the plane.

When you look at the travel time in the other segments it’s awesome but Toronto to Montreal not as much when it’s the segment that can benefits the most being faster.

 

[Urban Sky]

Fastest is not the average service. Or even a reliable time when you consider delays. Nobody who regularly uses VIA, budgets less than 5 hrs to Ottawa on or 6 hrs to Montreal from Union.

To underline this with my personal, anecdotal experience traveling between Montreal and Toronto on 5 round trips during the last 2 years:

Train	Scheduled Travel Time	Actual Travel Time	Delay (in minutes)
63/2024-06-12	5:32	5:33	1'
668/2024-06-13	4:53	5:06	13'
63/2025-01-08	5:32	5:26	6' early
62/2025-01-10	5:28	6:31	63'
63/2025-03-12	5:32	5:44	12'
62/2025-03-14	5:28	6:15	47'
63/2025-09-10	5:32	5:30	2' early
64/2025-09-12	5:27	5:47	20'
63/2025-12-11	5:32	7:04	92'
64/2025-12-13	5:27	6:23	56'
Average	5:26	5:56	30'

Of these 10 trips, I received a late travel credit (50% of ticket price fare paid, if train arrives more than 55 minutes late) 3 times (including for both trips I did this week). It's also worth noting that apart from that trip on 668, all these trips originated in the morning and were thus much less likely to suffer from knock-on delays from late inbound trains than trains departing in the afternoon...

 

[urbanclient]

At 3:07 hrs? It will be faster than flying.

Union Station to Billy Bishop: 15 min
Pre-boarding: 30 mins
Flight from YTZ to YUL: 75 mins (scheduled time for most Porter flights)
De-boarding: 15 mins from gate to curb to train or taxi.
REM from YUL to Gare-Centrale: 25 mins

Total: 2:40 hrs is the absolute fastest possible by air from Union station to Gare Centrale and it involves two transfers (for which I assumed zero time) in addition to the flight. 27 mins more in the absolute best case scenario and zero transfers? Just get on the train and crack open the laptop and get to work? I don't know many business travelers that would pass that up.

Oh and in reality. almost nobody gets to the airport only 30 mins before their flight leaves. If they plan an hour early, they aren't beating 3:07 hrs. If they fly out of Pearson where pre-boarding times are longer and they have a 25 mins UPE ride, or if they have luggage and they have to check-in before the bag check closes, they are most definitely not beating 3:07 hrs.

The asterisk with that assumption is that not everyone lives near Union Station, and not everyone is going to Gare Centrale. In which case a quick drive or uber to and from the airports is the predominant way to go currently. More flights go from Pearson to Montreal than Billy Bishop to Montreal, so that's also another flaw in that assumption. For most people in Toronto, it takes at least 30 minutes just to get to Union, and everyone is getting to the train station 20 minutes early at least. So combined with everything, a home to Union to Gare Centrale on Alto is more like 4 hours for most Torontonians. Without luggage, from home to Pearson/Billy Bishop to Trudeau is ~3 hours including 75 minutes to drive to the airport and go through security. Do I think Alto has to be unequivocally faster than flying in every case, no. Just nitpicking here.

 

[canucks2030]

Peterborough is well beyond the GTA.

But again, not every train has to stop at every station. There can be a variety of stopping patterns, overlapping services, etc. More stations doesn't mean longer travel times.

I never said every train has to stop at every station. I even mentioned the stopping patterns multiple times.

 

[Urban Sky]

The asterisk with that assumption is that not everyone lives near Union Station, and not everyone is going to Gare Centrale. In which case a quick drive or uber to and from the airports is the predominant way to go. More flights go from Pearson to Montreal than Billy Bishop to Montreal, so that's also another flaw in that assumption. For most people in Toronto, it takes at least 30 minutes just to get to Union, and everyone is getting to the train station 20 minutes early at least. So combined with everything, a home to Union to Gare Centrale on Alto is more like 4 hours for most Torontonians. Without luggage, from home to Pearson/Billy Bishop to Trudeau is ~3 hours including 75 minutes to drive to the airport and go through security. Do I think Alto has to be unequivocally faster than flying in every case, no. Just nitpicking here.

The difference between taking the train and flying is that the travel time spent on board the train is productive time for me, whereas the entire door-to-door travel time of the travel chain involving the plane is just frustrating me, as I will arrive in office after 3 hours without a single minute worked. And for most other travelers (e.g., leisure), the train will be cheaper and more convenient than the plane...

 

[canucks2030]

To underline this with my personal, anecdotal experience traveling between Montreal and Toronto on 5 round trips during the last 2 years:

Train	Scheduled Travel Time	Actual Travel Time	Delay (in minutes)
63/2024-06-12	5:32	5:33	1'
668/2024-06-13	4:53	5:06	13'
63/2025-01-08	5:32	5:26	6' early
62/2025-01-10	5:28	6:31	63'
63/2025-03-12	5:32	5:44	12'
62/2025-03-14	5:28	6:15	47'
63/2025-09-10	5:32	5:30	2' early
64/2025-09-12	5:27	5:47	20'
63/2025-12-11	5:32	7:04	92'
64/2025-12-13	5:27	6:23	56'
Average	5:26	5:56	30'

Of these 10 trips, I received a late travel credit (50% of ticket price fare paid) 3 times (including for both trips I did this week). It's also worth noting that apart from that trip on 668, all these trips originated in the morning and were thus much less likely to suffer from knock-on delays from late inbound trains than trains departing in the afternoon...

Totally agree. This is why I mentioned HSR will be more frequent and reliable. But considering the trains will go up to 300km an hour on dedicated lanes and considering the trip duration of the other segments, I do feel the travel time between Montreal and Toronto is disappointing for HSR. But of course will be better than today. I acknowledged that as well.

 

[Urban Sky]

Totally agree. This is why I mentioned HSR will be more frequent and reliable. But considering the trains will go up to 300km an hour on dedicated lanes and considering the trip duration of the other segments, I do feel the travel time between Montreal and Toronto is disappointing for HSR. But of course will be better than today. I acknowledged that as well.

Just out of interest, what kind of travel time would you find appropriate for two cities 504 km apart (Euclidean distance, measured between the respective VIA stations and partly running through Lake Ontario and the US) and what European or Asian examples come into your mind where a comparable distance is covered in, say, less than 3 hours?