Finch West Line 6 LRT

[urbanclient]

Who runs this city’s mundane traffic signals, Metrolinx or City Hall?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998189403756515830

I hope you can understand the confusion regarding who is responsible for the lack of strong active signal priority, (emphasis mine):

"Supplementary Report: Congestion Management Plan - 2025 Update
Date: April 22, 2025
To: City Council
From: General Manager, Transportation Services
[...]
To date there are 420 transit signal priority locations in the City with over 80 installed over the past two years. All of the City's current TSP locations are 'unconditional' in their operation.
[...]
Given the high volume of riders transferring to and from the LRT from connecting buses, Conditional TSP better supports safe transfers for transit passengers. For these reasons, and in consultation with the City and TTC the Metrolinx consortia are implementing Conditional TSP on Line 5 Eglinton and Line 6 Finch West.
[...]
There are two priority strategies related to TSP operations:

• Unconditional - where transit is always given extended green times; or,

• Conditional - whereby transit priority is only given under certain circumstances forexample if the transit vehicle is running late and behind schedule or if the headwaybetween buses is not being maintained and there is a need to control 'bunching'which also creates delays and inefficiencies to transit operations.

All of the City's current TSP serving streetcars and buses are Unconditional in their operation."



It's unclear even now if 'strong active signal priority' is possible with the current signal infrastructure on Line 5 and Line 6. How the line was built is largely Metrolinx's responsibility, even if they did it "in consultation with the City and TTC".

And now that both lines have been handed over, how said signal infrastructure is operated would appear to be more of the responsibility of City Transportation Services and the TTC (see quote below). But given the fact that Metrolinx are about as transparent as the illuminati @Bojaxs , and that I heard from a Mosaic Transit Group guy that Black & McDonald was responsible for the signals. I am still not 100% on who is to blame here. I said apparently not Metrolinx according to a deleted Q&A from a twitter post, but who is to say what is in that 30 year contract with Mosaic?

Another quote: "The responsibility of TSP design and commissioning currently rests with Metrolinx until Line 5 and 6 are completed. Once the two lines are complete, and hand-over of the new lines has occurred, the City of Toronto Transportation Services and the TTC will continue to refine TSP strategies through the Train Operating Funding Agreement and Train Operating Services Agreement, including looking at any appropriate opportunity for unconditional TSP, to provide customers with fast and reliable service on the new LRT lines."

Source:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254795.pdf

This is a good definition of 'strong active signal priority':

https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/1n2oa73/comment/nb8syvh

 

[hw621]

Honestly, I’m not upset about the Disaster on Finch West. The embarrassment will force the TTC to evaluate its operating procedures on Finch West, and apply the same lessons to the rest of the streetcar and surface network. I hope the Eglinton Line will be a disaster as well.

In the meanwhile, we must keep up the pressure on City Council!

Since when the TTC is motivated by embarrassment?

 

[drum118]

I’m sorry, but this sounds like an overreaction that may actually do more harm than good by undermining people’s confidence in transit in this city. If they have to be this careful for 6 months, the line should not be open to the public.

Talking to a few transit personnel in the US who have run systems, they expect improvement over the next 6 months or less, but with no transit priority not going to improve that much.

 

[nfitz]

Since when the TTC is motivated by embarrassment?

They aren't. But councillors are motivated by looking like complete fools. Nothing gets done until a politician puts a boot up their ass.

I don't understand why Olivia Chow was so utterly extreme and hardline on the Police Board, but seems feckless on stuff like this.

According to TTCHelps, introducing TSP at intersections will reduce the total end to end travel time down to... 46 minutes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998196699672588553

46 minutes? That's the current schedule. It was supposed to be 38 minutes until now. And about 33 minutes before Metrolinx comprehended they weren't going to get transit priority.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

There might be improvement in a normal context but this is the TTC we are talking about.

TTC culture sticks once it gains any iota of traction. All those speed reductions have a possibility of becoming permanently engrained. We need to get it right from the get go stiff elbowing the TTC to get with the program.

 

[Northern Light]

There might be improvement in a normal context but this is the TTC we are talking about.

TTC culture sticks once it gains any iota of traction. All those speed reductions have a possibility of become permanently engrained. We need to get it right from the get go stiff elbowing the TTC to get with the program.

This is it.

They had 30 days ++ to test for any serious deficiencies.

The first few days you run it slowly to test for any obvious problem, then you ramp up, then 7 days later again, and so on.

Frankly you want to see how the line performs when driven hard, to a reasonably believable maximum even if that is never likely to be deployed in service. You either run the vehicle driver-less, which you can do; or you put the nice person in a crash-suit with a hefty wage premium and you say take the tunnel at 40km/ph we want to see if it stays on the rails........

Likewise you run the dips and straight-aways at projected maximum speed + 10km/ph to see how the vehicles fare under stress. You do this at night, you close some crossing of Finch with police for a night or three from 12am-5am and safely see what happens.

Then you know, and you manage the service plan accordingly.

We need to veer hard away from the culture of excuses; it's results that count.

 

[urbanclient]

I think we all want this, strong active signal priority. 20 seconds before the ION LRT even reaches the intersection, all other road traffic is halted.

If Waterloo can do it on Day 1 a full six years ago, why can't we? And it doesn't necessarily have to be as big as a 20 second margin. This isn't rocket science. Even if ION doesn't get priority, much less preemption at every single intersection, it is still much better than what we have so far with Line 6's clownshow.

 

[youngblood]

Out of everything I’ve read on Twitter and UT, watched on YouTube both transit nerds and mainstream news, I haven’t heard one person advocate to keep the LRT without TSP.

So who really is supporting not turning it on?

 

[Steve X]

Since when the TTC is motivated by embarrassment?

They aren't even embarrassed. They went straight to the blame game and called out the control system limiting their speed.

Rail lines was setup to fail if the modern TTC operates them. We can see from historical videos that TTC operated a much faster streetcar and subway system than the crap they do today. There is no hope they will even get this down to 40 minutes with the behaviours and attitude towards rail operation. It seems like they can still operate a bus for now. Maybe in 10 years they will buy buses that slowly closes all the doors to make transit worse. I mean the rear doors on the current buses already close slower than high floor buses in the 80s with a much lower capacity.

The number of reduced speed zones on the subway system is pathetic. Even without those RSZ, the TRs already operate slower than the T1s and H5s. Look what they do on Allen. Trains barely get to 60 km/h and that is complete grade separation. And we are telling them to do that on Finch, there is no hope.

Also a part of all this slowness nonsense is scheduling. They can't just speed pass every station and take a longer break at the end. Trains will all just get stuck in a backlog waiting to enter the terminal. So they want them all to go slow.

 

[trafficexplorerON]

A few days ago I made this mock-up on how a transit priority phase before left turning vehicles could work, based off of a few discussions I have previously read. @reaperexpress also gave me some feedback in the comments section about what other movements could be allowed concurrently with the transit phase.
What do you think of it?

 

[Amare]

They aren't even embarrassed. They went straight to the blame game and called out the control system limiting their speed.

Rail lines was setup to fail if the modern TTC operates them. We can see from historical videos that TTC operated a much faster streetcar and subway system than the crap they do today. There is no hope they will even get this down to 40 minutes with the behaviours and attitude towards rail operation. It seems like they can still operate a bus for now. Maybe in 10 years they will buy buses that slowly closes all the doors to make transit worse. I mean the rear doors on the current buses already close slower than high floor buses in the 80s with a much lower capacity.

The number of reduced speed zones on the subway system is pathetic. Even without those RSZ, the TRs already operate slower than the T1s and H5s. Look what they do on Allen. Trains barely get to 60 km/h and that is complete grade separation. And we are telling them to do that on Finch, there is no hope.

Also a part of all this slowness nonsense is scheduling. They can't just speed pass every station and take a longer break at the end. Trains will all just get stuck in a backlog waiting to enter the terminal. So they want them all to go slow.

Dont worry I'm sure we're only one lawsuit away from the TTC limiting the acceleration on e-buses and hybrids.

You're correct in that the TTC has absolutely no shame in the way they operate vehicles. Frankly it's laughably embarrassing ,but they dont seem to think so as they love to pass the blame on "congestion", left-turning vehicles, etc instead of taking accountability.

 

[Johnny Au]

December 7, 2025:

Finch West Station:

 

[reaperexpress]

I hope you can understand the confusion regarding who is responsible for the lack of strong active signal priority, (emphasis mine):

"Supplementary Report: Congestion Management Plan - 2025 Update
Date: April 22, 2025
To: City Council
From: General Manager, Transportation Services
[...]
To date there are 420 transit signal priority locations in the City with over 80 installed over the past two years. All of the City's current TSP locations are 'unconditional' in their operation.
[...]
Given the high volume of riders transferring to and from the LRT from connecting buses, Conditional TSP better supports safe transfers for transit passengers. For these reasons, and in consultation with the City and TTC the Metrolinx consortia are implementing Conditional TSP on Line 5 Eglinton and Line 6 Finch West.
[...]
There are two priority strategies related to TSP operations:

• Unconditional - where transit is always given extended green times; or,

• Conditional - whereby transit priority is only given under certain circumstances forexample if the transit vehicle is running late and behind schedule or if the headwaybetween buses is not being maintained and there is a need to control 'bunching'which also creates delays and inefficiencies to transit operations.

All of the City's current TSP serving streetcars and buses are Unconditional in their operation."



It's unclear even now if 'strong active signal priority' is possible with the current signal infrastructure on Line 5 and Line 6. How the line was built is largely Metrolinx's responsibility, even if they did it "in consultation with the City and TTC".

And now that both lines have been handed over, how said signal infrastructure is operated would appear to be more of the responsibility of City Transportation Services and the TTC (see quote below). But given the fact that Metrolinx are about as transparent as the illuminati @Bojaxs , and that I heard from a Mosaic Transit Group guy that Black & McDonald was responsible for the signals. I am still not 100% on who is to blame here. I said apparently not Metrolinx according to a deleted Q&A from a twitter post, but who is to say what is in that 30 year contract with Mosaic?

Another quote: "The responsibility of TSP design and commissioning currently rests with Metrolinx until Line 5 and 6 are completed. Once the two lines are complete, and hand-over of the new lines has occurred, the City of Toronto Transportation Services and the TTC will continue to refine TSP strategies through the Train Operating Funding Agreement and Train Operating Services Agreement, including looking at any appropriate opportunity for unconditional TSP, to provide customers with fast and reliable service on the new LRT lines."

Source:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254795.pdf

This is a good definition of 'strong active signal priority':

https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/1n2oa73/comment/nb8syvh

Black & Mac is the City's traffic signal contractor. They don't call the shots, they just do what Transportation Services tells them to do. It sounds like they were also hired by Mosaic during the design/construction stage, which makes sense since they're already familiar with Toronto's signals.

 

[urbanclient]

Dont worry I'm sure we're only one lawsuit away from the TTC limiting the acceleration on e-buses and hybrids.

You're correct in that the TTC has absolutely no shame in the way they operate vehicles. Frankly it's laughably embarrassing ,but they dont seem to think so as they love to pass the blame on "congestion", left-turning vehicles, etc instead of taking accountability.

Did you see the amount of TTC old heads in high-vis with beer bellies and grey/white hair around Finch West on Sunday? They were all over Line 6, at the terminus stations, and occasionally on the trains. The TTC is a seniority based organization, it is not a particularly meritocratic organization.

Here is relevant video and corresponding article:

Calls grow from TTC riders to improve Line 6 Finch West LRT trip times

CityNews Toronto went out across Line 6 Finch West to test trip times for light rail vehicles, shuttle buses and driving to compare each mode.

toronto.citynews.ca

Quick segue:
Lots of hot air from people and bots on reddit, youtube, and even this forum for a looong time now about streetcars and TSP: "they have transit priority equipment built, the City/TTC just doesn't turn them on".
At least 300 intersections had "unconditional" signal priority 'on' for streetcars and buses as of April 2025. **EDIT #2 for clarification: *"Currently, of the 420 existing TSP locations, approximately 100 are not currently operational because of construction impacts"*: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254795.pdf

So it's less that they're not "on", and more that they suck a** so bad that they might as well be "off".

Even CityNews is saying dumb stuff now about Line 6, thinking the line was built without TSP at all.
CityNews: "We asked Metrolinx why the line was built without transit priority signals."

EDIT: *I would hope Black & McDonald completed their signal work on time for the opening? Anyone wanna chime in on this? The whole aura around transit in Toronto is so incompetent at all levels I'm not even sure if the CityNews journalist misspoke, or that the line actually was built without TSP.*

 

[reaperexpress]

So it's less that they're not "on", and more that they suck a** so bad that they might as well be "off".

Yes and no. At 6:28:06 in the October 27 Infrastructure Committee meeting, Councillor Saxe mentions that of the 440 intersections with TSP, about a quarter of them have TSP disabled.

Of the ones that are actually on, most don't work well. But the reasons they don't work well vary by intersection type.

The TSP settings on the downtown streetcar network are actually very aggressive - they can extend the Walk light by up to 30 seconds and shorten the Walk light on the cross street to its minimal duration (7 seconds). Which in theory should be enough to almost guarantee a green. But that depends on the signal being able to accurately predict the streetcar's arrival time, to determine which TSP action to take. And since most downtown signals have a near-side stop with very inconsistent dwell times, the estimate is almost always wrong. Which causes the green to be provided at the wrong time. One of the only intersections downtown with a long and predictable approach is westbound at King & John, where there's a long uninterrupted stretch of track from Simcoe and a far-side stop at John. I did a survey one afternoon during the King Pilot and found that 100% of the westbound streetcars that requested TSP got through on a green light. This was 90% of the total streetcars, and all of the streetcars that did get stopped were less than 90 seconds behind the previous streetcar (so they weren't allowed to request TSP).

With dedicated ROWs and far-side stops such as on St Clair, the issue is often that the parameters are too weak, the crosswalks are too long, and the stops are too close together. Streetcars can still extend the Walk by 30 seconds, but since the stops are so close together, putting the request detector 30-40 seconds in advance (20 s design extension + pedestrian coundown) actually places it within the previous streetcar stop, so there's still the same issue with unpredictable dwell times causing inaccurate ETA. A couple intersections (e.g. St Clair & Avenue Rd) have been retrofitted with intermediate detectors to update the ETA when the streetcar leaves the stop to give the signal a second chance to determine the best TSP action to take.

In addition, since those roads are wider and there are single-stage pedestrian crossings, the minimum phase duration for the cross-street is well over 30 seconds. So there is more unavoidable delay during the cross-street phase. Then to make matters worse, the City does not allow the TSP system to insert a short extra green for teh streetcar before proceeding to the left turn phase, even though the system is totally capable of doing so. The system is also capable of rotating the phase order on the fly (so the left turn phases come at the end if there's a streetcar at the beginning, and vice versa), and interestingly in that meeting I linked above Roger Browne from Transportation Services says they're considering enabling that feature as part of their review of signal operations on Spadina.