F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

[kEiThZ]

But a range of about 6500 NM/ 14 hours (ish) on the BBD 6500 platform is pretty impressive. Having said that, would there be space for a relief crew? I'd hate to see them start to dink around with it and try to add piping for AAR.

1) Paper range for regional jet =\= range for AEW aircraft with giant draggy radar on top.

2) 14 hrs of range isn't useful when it takes 7 hrs to get from Winnipeg to the North Pole.

3) Staging fuel in the Arctic is extremely expensive and cumbersome. And one of these aircraft can drain the their supply of a small airfield.

As for room for the relief crew, not a big deal. AAR piping doesn't take up the much space.

 

[lenaitch]

1) Paper range for regional jet =\= range for AEW aircraft with giant draggy radar on top.

2) 14 hrs of range isn't useful when it takes 7 hrs to get from Winnipeg to the North Pole.

3) Staging fuel in the Arctic is extremely expensive and cumbersome. And one of these aircraft can drain the their supply of a small airfield.

As for room for the relief crew, not a big deal. AAR piping doesn't take up the much space.

Fair. It is better that twice the range of the P-8 but at least we have bases on the east and west coasts. My concern wasn't so much space for the piping as the delay caused to engineer and approve the modifications. Topshee gets it with wanting "unmodified" subs to prevent engineering challenges and delays.

Having said all of that, what are our options? Hasn't the E-7 Wedgetail been cancelled?

 

[kEiThZ]

Having said all of that, what are our options? Hasn't the E-7 Wedgetail been cancelled?

The E-7 isn't cancelled. Just that NATO cancelled the pooled European purchase. And the Americans are on the fence (blame Elon Musk's perfidy and interference). The UK and Australia will still grow their fleets. And so far the US is still buying theirs. For other options, the Globaleye is the lead one. And if we were in Europe and didn't have to fly far, that would be fine. The other option is the L3 CAEW.

L3Harris, Korean Air and ELTA Advancing ROK’s Airborne Early Warning and Control Capability

L3Harris Technologies, Korean Air and Israel Aerospace Industries’ ELTA Systems Ltd. (IAI/ELTA) are teamed to integrate and deliver the next generation of survivable, high-altitude airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft to the Republic of Korea (ROK) Air Force.

www.l3harris.com

This was offered to NATO with AAR capability.

Italy, Israel and Singapore operate the same radar (IAI/Elta EL/W-2085). Integrated on a Gulfstream though. Korea will be the first to integrate that on a Bombardier Global.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If the F-35 was just cut to 50-60 and we purchased just as many Gripens that would be defensible.

We wouldn’t see a full squadron of Gripens until the mid to late 2030s, even with a CKD assembly plant in Canada. In addition to 150 Gripens for Ukraine, SAAB has just confirmed Columbia, and is about to close on Peru and likely Thailand. SAAB’s production guys should have been speaking with their sales guys. I’ve been there, where I’ve sold more product than the plant can make within a reasonable timeframe. If I was in sales at KAI I would be telling SAAB’s customers that you don’t need to wait until the mid 2030’s for your Gripens when I can get you a set of KF-21 Boramae in half the time on better terms.

It’s too late for Canada where further delays cannot be accepted, otherwise I’d like Canada to consider the KF-21. Lockheed-Martin is taking notice. KAI just announced a KF-21 production line in the Philippines.

 

[kEiThZ]

The 2021 competition scores have leaked. Even the companies never saw the original scores. Enjoy.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-gripen-dnd-competition-9.6992167

 

[Coolibop]

The 2021 competition scores have leaked. Even the companies never saw the original scores. Enjoy.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-gripen-dnd-competition-9.6992167

And yet, it still passed.

I wonder whether the Gripen, by merely meeting the minimum requirements, will sway those who prefer the alternative…

 

[kEiThZ]

And yet, it still passed.

Minimums are usually quite low.

 

[guavadelic]

The 2021 competition scores have leaked. Even the companies never saw the original scores. Enjoy.

DND folks seem to be circling the wagons to pressure the Feds stick with the F-35 order. The Carney government is in between a rock and a hard place in making this call. There will be political blowback in either option. They've been left holding the bag after this can kept getting kicked down the road.

I did find this point interesting that was made by a couple of the folks quoted in the piece:

Massie said the government should not decide to purchase a military aircraft like the Gripen based on promises of Canadian jobs. The objective, he said, should be to evaluate whether a second fleet could complement the F-35 based on the country's long-term military needs.

“It’s not up to the minister of industry to define Canada’s military needs,” he said. “Defence policy isn’t about jobs.”

And Blondin said the prospect of a mixed fleet should be a longer-term project, when fighters will fly alongside a new generation of combat drones.

I've also found the central role the Industry Minister has been playing in this decision perplexing. It should be about defence capabilities first and foremost. There's been rumors that Joly will be sent to Paris to be appointed ambassador to France so she might not be as involved as she's been signaling.

If the Feds do decide to stick with the F-35 order, they should simultaneously announce they're joining a sixth-gen program to mix the fleet in the future. That could quell the sure-to-come uproar.

 

[kEiThZ]

DND folks seem to be circling the wagons to pressure the Feds stick with the F-35 order.

Indeed. 25 years in the CAF. Never seen the exact scoring sheet leak out.

The Carney government is in between a rock and a hard place in making this call. There will be political blowback in either option. They've been left holding the bag after this can kept getting kicked down the road.

Kinda a situation of their own making. There's no way Joly is going without some leeway from cabinet colleagues.

There's been rumors that Joly will be sent to Paris to be appointed ambassador to France so she might not be as involved as she's been signaling.

This will be highly entertaining. Given the way the French withdrew the Rafale, I don't think they'll be super kind to the Gripen pumper.

If the Feds do decide to stick with the F-35 order, they should simultaneously announce they're joining a sixth-gen program to mix the fleet in the future. That could quell the sure-to-come uproar.

This is exactly what the air staff recommended. And several ex military folks have suggested it publicly.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There's been rumors that Joly will be sent to Paris to be appointed ambassador to France

Carney is methodically excising himself (or encouraging an exit) of Trudeau's cabinet. Freeland and likely now Joly out of cabinet, with former Trudeau ministers Blair, Wilkinson, Taylor, Miller, Gould, Holland, Duclos, Ng, and Hussen out from the onset. I'm glad Carney's keeping Anand, as she is doing well.

As for the F-35, this getting ridiculous. The Liberal government ran a competition in 2022 in which the F-35 beat the Gripen, after which we signed a contract with Lockheed-Martin and the first of sixteen aircraft are arriving next year. I wish Carney would just announce that the deal's been signed, the Gripen is dead, and that going forward on NEW defence projects, Canada will ensure to consider all global contenders.

Which begs the question, where's Saab's next gen fighter? The Saab Draken was introduced in 1960, the Viggen in 1971, and the Gripen in 1996. The latest version of the Gripen is miles ahead of those from 1996 (much as a Boeing F-15A is no equal to today's F-15X), but AFAIK Saab has no Gripen replacement in development. Sweden is not part of the Anglo-Italian-Japan GCAP (Global Combat Air Program) or the French-German-Spanish FCAS (Future Combat Air System). . Meanwhile, Saab is soon going to see the Western-aligned market for non-F-35 get smoked by the South Koreans and their KF-21. Heck, if we weren't so late to the game and had upgraded to Super Hornets or similar in the early 2000s, I'd want Canada to consider the KF-21 for its fighter needs into the 2040s.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

DND folks seem to be circling the wagons to pressure the Feds stick with the F-35 order. The Carney government is in between a rock and a hard place in making this call. There will be political blowback in either option. They've been left holding the bag after this can kept getting kicked down the road.

If the Feds do decide to stick with the F-35 order, they should simultaneously announce they're joining a sixth-gen program to mix the fleet in the future. That could quell the sure-to-come uproar.

Rock and a hard place only if we were keeping the status quo and not recognizing the world has changed and so will our budgetary needs for defence, whether the populace accepts it kicking and screaming or not.

Stick to a limited F-35 order, announce a mixed-fleet and deal for some Gripens* to replace the Hornets short-term and a promise to bring manufacturing jobs to Canada, and announce a longer-term commitment to a sixth-gen program (ideally GCAP). Please everyone and nobody at the same time, as Carney has been doing throughout his tenure as PM.

* - The Gripens are expected to be phased out by 2060 anyway, so we only really need them to bridge the gap between the Hornets and a sixth-gen fighter. Not the cheapest way to bridge the gap, but that is a consequence of Canada's delaying investment for decades.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Gripens are expected to be phased out by 2060 anyway, so we only really need them to bridge the gap between the Hornets and a sixth-gen fighter.

You understand that 2060 is 35 years away right?

This is exactly why the RCAF is so opposed to any 4th gen. Not just the Gripen. The USAF took delivery of their their F-16 in 2005. We're being asked to take delivery of an upgraded equivalent of that in the 2030s. In a world where the major powers are fielding 6th gen platforms now and proliferating 5th Gen aircraft everywhere.

The problem is not today. The problem is what happens in 2045 when we have to deploy the Baltics because Putin's grandson is acting up.

You might say all of that can be done by the F-35 fleet. But given the rumoured small F-35 fleet, that means insane demands on that fleet. Over time as the threat grows the fourth Gen fleet becomes less deployable. Exactly why most of our peers are retiring all their fourth Gen by 2045 on most schedules.

On the Gripen specifically, I will add. Not one single neighbour of Sweden purchased it. Even though they all face the same threat.

Finally, the emerging idea for a split fleet is to go even cheaper. Just get more fighter trainers and use them only in North America. Like the Korean FA-50. The air force is shopping for a fighter trainer right now anyway. They would just buy more. And configure them for domestic and NORAD duties. The F-35 fleet will be 60-80 frames and do most of the deployed stuff.

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[afransen]

DND folks seem to be circling the wagons to pressure the Feds stick with the F-35 order. The Carney government is in between a rock and a hard place in making this call. There will be political blowback in either option. They've been left holding the bag after this can kept getting kicked down the road.

I did find this point interesting that was made by a couple of the folks quoted in the piece:

I've also found the central role the Industry Minister has been playing in this decision perplexing. It should be about defence capabilities first and foremost. There's been rumors that Joly will be sent to Paris to be appointed ambassador to France so she might not be as involved as she's been signaling.

If the Feds do decide to stick with the F-35 order, they should simultaneously announce they're joining a sixth-gen program to mix the fleet in the future. That could quell the sure-to-come uproar.

It sure seems to me that the Carney government is decided on F35s but Joly is angling for additional industrial benefits to Canada.

 

[kEiThZ]

It sure seems to me that the Carney government is decided on F35s but Joly is angling for additional industrial benefits to Canada.

They've probably started to understand that the promises need scrutiny. The Brazilians were given the same promises we are now. Most of that didn't materialize.

Also, Carney's focus was repatriating defence dollars. Not stop buying everything from the US, as the conspiracies have moved on to. You can't handbrake turn military supply chains. Just an example. Today we bought several billion worth of ammo from the US.

https://media.defense.gov/2025/Dec/04/2003834974/-1/-1/0/PRESS%20RELEASE%20-%20CANADA%2025-98%20CN.PDF

But if the government wants pathways to build more airplanes at home, there's more than just building Gripens. And I've heard that the idea of buying fighter trainers was pushed up the Chain. Going to be hilarious to see Saab fanboys argue against the exact logic they've been using against the F-35.

 

[kEiThZ]

We might be joining GCAP apparently. As per the Italian Defence Minister.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/italy-says-germany-other-countries-may-be-interested-gcap-jet-programme-2025-12-04/