Finch West Line 6 LRT

[nfitz]

View attachment 629150
Please read carefully. The charts are inflation adjusted.

The point here isn’t just that transit plans have changed over time. It’s that our reactionary approach to cost control, constantly cutting the scope of projects at the expense of transportation utility, hasn’t produced lower costs at all. The dogmatic belief that “LRT is always cheaper than subway” completely ignores the actual reasons behind cost escalation and has resulted in poorer material outcomes.

Inflated using which index? The consumer price index - which is for the price of groceries and clothes? Or the construction price index, which is for construction?

One is much higher than the other for the last few decades.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It is also misleading - if you are going to compare costs - do it for projects from the same era. Say Finch West to OL or SSE.

AoD

 

[Kyle Campbell]

View attachment 629150
Please read carefully. The charts are inflation adjusted.

The point here isn’t just that transit plans have changed over time. It’s that our reactionary approach to cost control, constantly cutting the scope of projects at the expense of transportation utility, hasn’t produced lower costs at all. The dogmatic belief that “LRT is always cheaper than subway” completely ignores the actual reasons behind cost escalation and has resulted in poorer material outcomes.

Except the axiom still holds, if you compare projects in the same era. All subway projects in the same era as Finch have ballooned much higher then older ones. The Ontario Line or the SSE are well past 500m/km

Sure Toronto used to be able to build a subway cheaper than what Finch is costing, but it doesn't seem able to now.

I'd be more concerned as to why Finch costs way more the similar projects like Edmonton's Valley Line, which are built in the same era, with similar specs but are far cheaper per km

 

[duty free]

No, it should have been elevated down the median of Finch Avenue. The binary between tunneled and on-street running is completely arbitrary and has poisioned discusions of transit expansion in Toronto for over two decades now. Can we please move past it? I'll even buy you a ticket to Vancouver just to ride the skytrain

Generally speaking how wide would a street need to be to accommodate an elevated line like the Skytrain?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Generally speaking how wide would a street need to be to accommodate an elevated line like the Skytrain?

Not very wide at all. Just past Commercial-Broadway, the Skytrain follows a back alley paralleling Commercial Dr.

It's more the curve into Humber that's way too tight for a Skytrain. The Skytrain (not the Canada Line) does high speed curves really well, probably better than any other system in the country. But nothing comes close to that sharp. I'm not sure there's enough space to make the curve the train would need without expropriating a fair number of homes on the southeast corner

 

[urbancog]

Sure Toronto used to be able to build a subway cheaper than what Finch is costing, but it doesn't seem able to now

As noted above, general construction price inflation in the Toronto Region is noticeably higher than general (consumer) price inflation because there's more construction going on here than other N American cities, coupled with a lack of experienced people to do the work. Add to that the specialist nature of transit construction - particularly working next to live rail lines - and the pool of available workers is even smaller.

Due to the lack of political will to build transit in the 1980s and 1990s, there's also been a sudden increase in the amount of transit-related construction as we catch up with what should have been built earlier.

These all contribute to the higher transit construction costs.

Metrolinx attempted to address this by inviting overseas contractors with transit-building experience to get involved with tenders but that is not a panacea as they have additional costs involved in establishing themselves here that inevitably get included in their bid prices.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

As noted above, general construction price inflation in the Toronto Region is noticeably higher than general (consumer) price inflation because there's more construction going on here than other N American cities, coupled with a lack of experienced people to do the work. Add to that the specialist nature of transit construction - particularly working next to live rail lines - and the pool of available workers is even smaller.

Due to the lack of political will to build transit in the 1980s and 1990s, there's also been a sudden increase in the amount of transit-related construction as we catch up with what should have been built earlier.

These all contribute to the higher transit construction costs.

Metrolinx attempted to address this by inviting overseas contractors with transit-building experience to get involved with tenders but that is not a panacea as they have additional costs involved in establishing themselves here that inevitably get included in their bid prices.

I don't totally buy that explanation, as Montreal, Ottawa, Edmonton etc are pulling from the same pool of experienced workers for their projects. Land is expensive sure, but I think Toronto gets quoted higher because it's Toronto, and companies think the market can bear it.

 

[TOtramz]

I wonder how much extra it would have costed to build the full thing to finch station? I feel like they should have done it in one go because price inflation makes it unlikely we're going to get any more extensions

 

[urbancog]

Montreal, Ottawa, Edmonton etc are pulling from the same pool of experienced workers for their projects

Yes, and they're pulling people away from Ontario:

Interprovincial migration indicators, provinces and territories: Interactive dashboard

This interactive dashboard allows the user to visualize the evolution of interprovincial migration over time as well as by province or territory, by age group and by gender. The dashboard shows the levels of in-migrants, out-migrants and net interprovincial migration. It also presents trends in...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[6ixGod]

View attachment 629150
Please read carefully. The charts are inflation adjusted.

The point here isn’t just that transit plans have changed over time. It’s that our reactionary approach to cost control, constantly cutting the scope of projects at the expense of transportation utility, hasn’t produced lower costs at all. The dogmatic belief that “LRT is always cheaper than subway” completely ignores the actual reasons behind cost escalation and has resulted in poorer material outcomes.

That’s precisely what I was going to screenshot. Thank you wise person

 

[Obsidian]

I wonder how much extra it would have costed to build the full thing to finch station? I feel like they should have done it in one go because price inflation makes it unlikely we're going to get any more extensions

You can say the same thing about every transit project at any time in history. it's always cheaper to do them in the past, but you don't have all the money you need for it in the past as well.

 

[kaptrice]

What do you think ION LRT does well that Finch LRT doesn’t? Much of it is centre running, slow, and with frequent intersections with car traffic. You cite VIVA BRT, which uses centre island platforms you call dangerous for an LRT.

iON spends a lot of distance in private rights-of-way, on the Waterloo & Huron Park spurs, in the hydro corridor approaching Fairway, and beside Courtland Ave. Even the centre-running segments are mostly fine given the relatively good signal priority.
What really hurt the line are the one-way sections and the abundance of sharp turns they create. That, and the low speed limits.

 

[drum118]

I wonder how much extra it would have costed to build the full thing to finch station? I feel like they should have done it in one go because price inflation makes it unlikely we're going to get any more extensions

It should be built for the full length of Finch, not to Yonge. Cost wise, $300 million per km that will increase over time based on inflation and what taking place at the time. Tunneling will be way higher'

 

[jmi22]

Generally speaking how wide would a street need to be to accommodate an elevated line like the Skytrain?

Modern light metro guideway columns can fit within a single traffic lane, as is frequently seen across Vancouver. So technically a two lane 8m street could accommodate one but I don't think that would be very politically viable lol. There is not a single major arterial in the GTA you could not fit an elevated line down

 

[jmi22]

Not very wide at all. Just past Commercial-Broadway, the Skytrain follows a back alley paralleling Commercial Dr.

It's more the curve into Humber that's way too tight for a Skytrain. The Skytrain (not the Canada Line) does high speed curves really well, probably better than any other system in the country. But nothing comes close to that sharp. I'm not sure there's enough space to make the curve the train would need without expropriating a fair number of homes on the southeast corner

Considering the very wealthy peoples homes that were expropriated for the Ontario Line tunnel exit out over the Don Valley, I think this would have been doable in the much less politically influential neighbourhoods of North Etobicoke