Moss Park / Queen & Sherbourne

[rdaner]

Just a visual of Berkeley from Shuter to show how much room there is to work with. I see two narrow vehicle lanes possible with sidewalks.

 

[Mihairokov]

Buvette Pacey is a nice spot.

Not convinced on the need to connect Berekley as anything more than a bike path.

 

[evandyk]

I'm not sure why any aspect of this area is improved by encouraging more cars to cut through it?

 

[slicecom]

If Doug wont let us put bike lanes on Parliament as planned, a bike path connection on Berkley could be a good alternative between The Esplanade and Carlton.

 

[JasonParis]

I'm not sure why any aspect of this area is improved by encouraging more cars to cut through it?

Eyes on the street.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not sure why any aspect of this area is improved by encouraging more cars to cut through it?

Eyes on the street.

@JasonParis is correct.

Regent Park and Alexendra Park were both cut-off from their surrounding areas just like Moss Park. Outsiders not welcome.

The result, fewer outsiders.

This clearly has an impact on crime risks; but it also has an effect on social mobility. You want folks in financially challenged circumstances to be able to encounter people who are not.

That's how you get a job.......... you know someone.

That's also how you get your kid a math tutor........

etc. etc.

That's also how you get jobs in the community, because people who can afford to spend money are walking, biking and driving through.

When you isolate an area, cutting off people in difficulty from people who are finding life a bit easier, you're making life for those who struggle that much harder.

***

As a result of that.......Regent Park has been re-opened. Streets that were previously closed to outsiders, Sackville, Sumach, and Oak to name but three........have been reopened, in whole or in part.

In Alexandra Park, Augusta is being reconnected to Dundas. A good start, I wish they went further and reconnected Carr/Paul Lane seamlessly to Spadina, but that's water under the proverbial bridge.

I also would have liked to see Vanauley pushed through to Dundas.

 

[rdaner]

If Doug wont let us put bike lanes on Parliament as planned, a bike path connection on Berkley could be a good alternative between The Esplanade and Carlton.

Great question! Eyes on the street, allowing quicker access for those living on either side and decreasing this block’s isolation from the surrounding areas. This should be seen as a route for all modes of transport.

 

[Mihairokov]

@JasonParis is correct.

Regent Park and Alexendra Park were both cut-off from their surrounding areas just like Moss Park. Outsiders not welcome.

The result, fewer outsiders.

Sorry if i'm being naive but a street doesn't prevent crime any more than a walkway or bike path does. Streets surrounding Moss Park don't make it any safer. If anything, I prefer walking through the space where Beverley isn't because it's safer than walking down Sherbourne, ignoring the fact that cars are whizzing by at too-high of speeds during the day.

This also just assumes that the area is rampant with crime which I also take issue with. Even so, if an area is crime-ridden, the solution shouldn't be to allow cars entry into that area.

 

[Northern Light]

Sorry if i'm being naive but a street doesn't prevent crime any more than a walkway or bike path does.

Current thinking on this is different from your own.

Its about inviting people from outside the neighbourhood into it and through it, providing eyes-on-the-street and ensuring a broader community stake in the welfare of what is currently, a concentrated low-income community.

In any event...........

Moss Park will be redeveloped. Yes, I'm sure.

A new site plan will involve greater heights, mixed-income housing etc.

Its just not at the top of the list for being done, yet, because it will be expensive, it will require significant off-site replacement housing; and the buildings got some material investment in the early 90s.

Streets surrounding Moss Park don't make it any safer. If anything, I prefer walking through the space where Beverley isn't because it's safer than walking down Sherbourne, ignoring the fact that cars are whizzing by at too-high of speeds during the day.

Moss Park's Sherbourne fronting block does not convey the greatest sense of safety, because of the large shelter facility located there.

In general, I think you'll find the broader community (non Moss Park residents) tend to walk around the complex rather than through it, particularly after dark.

Frankly, its not unsafe, but its an instinct as much as anything.

This also just assumes that the area is rampant with crime which I also take issue with.

I concur that the risk is exaggerated, but it is one people perceive.

Even so, if an area is crime-ridden, the solution shouldn't be to allow cars entry into that area.

For reasons outlined above, in general, that is not the prevailing view at the moment. But I don't expect the streets to be put back through until redevelopment. We'll see if the site makes TCHC's expanded list shortly, but as it stands......redevelopment is likely in the late 2030s through late 2040s.

***

For further clarity, reconnecting the streets like 2 N-S streets, and probably a partial E-W street interrupted by a Park in the middle with pedestrian/cycling only through same, is not contemplated as a driver's paradise. I expect the ROWs would be tight, possibly one-way, and very pedestrian friendly, with generous streetscapes.

That btw is just my sense of where we would go when we get there, and not a description of any actual plan here.

 

[Jonny5]

Its just not at the top of the list for being done, yet, because it will be expensive, it will require significant off-site replacement housing; and the buildings got some material investment in the early 90s.

Are you talking about the Moss Park apartments? They also just finished a project replacing all of the windows in the towers.

In general, I think you'll find the broader community (non Moss Park residents) tend to walk around the complex rather than through it, particularly after dark.

Frankly, its not unsafe, but its an instinct as much as anything.

I find it fine to walk through the connector on the Berkeley side. The lightning there was also recently upgraded to (frankly too) bright white LED lightning in the car park and basketball court areas.
The basketball court especially has picked up much more regular use in the past few years (promoted by MLSE) and there's regularly large organised games going on there now, even after dark, so that makes it feel safer, though I guess use will go down in the winter, but in the summer there's games almost every night.

Also the explosion of dogs has hit this area, and lots of owners see the Moss Park Apartments' large open green space with trees and grass and lots of squirrels to bark at as a choice destination for a walk, or they use the basketball court to play off-leash as it's essentially completely fenced in. All in all, I'd say foot traffic in the area is up 100% from pre-pandemic. Gone are the days when I moved around there ten years ago and you could walk on Berkeley from Dundas all the way to King and pass zero other people on the sidewalk.

I concur that the risk is exaggerated, but it is one people perceive.

One thing I find that many don't understand is the risk isn't higher specifically at night.
That's when the addicts have already gotten their fix and found somewhere quiet to get high, and while they're high they're happy.
The most sketchy stuff I see is in the very early morning, when they are coming down and are highly agitated. And then all the people leave the shelter and start off trying to find something to do to get money for the day.
7:00 a.m. is scarier than 7:00 p.m. around there.

 

[Northern Light]

Are you talking about the Moss Park apartments? They also just finished a project replacing all of the windows in the towers.

Yes.

I find it fine to walk through the connector on the Berkeley side.

As noted, I think the perceived risk exceeds the actual risk.

But I also think its important to differentiate between groups.

Young adult to Middle-aged men will generally see the world as safer.

Older men, and women generally see greater risk.

As do some teenage males, as they are more likely to be targeted by some groups.

One thing I find that many don't understand is the risk really isn't higher specifically at night.
That's when the addicts have already gotten their fix and found somewhere quiet to get high, and while they're high they're happy.
The most sketchy stuff I see is in the very early morning, when they are coming down and are highly agitated. 7:00 a.m. is scarier than 7:00 p.m. around there.

Lots of risks are real, but many are exaggerated and/or people get the (sometimes important) details wrong.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Sorry if i'm being naive but a street doesn't prevent crime any more than a walkway or bike path does.

Displacement and gentrification does. That's where the condo boom in downtown east comes in. But we can't complain when that leads to encampments and squatters elsewhere.

This also just assumes that the area is rampant with crime which I also take issue with. Even so, if an area is crime-ridden, the solution shouldn't be to allow cars entry into that area.

IMO, more traffic, in cars, on bicycle, on foot, whatever will improve the space.

I just finished a walk from my place near Gerrard and Parliament over to Seaton, down to Dundas, down Sherbourne to Queen. I felt like I was on a zombie safari with so many men just zoned out, screaming and waving their arms. The church at Dundas and Sherbourne appears to be the greatest enabler or magnet in the area.