Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[lenaitch]

Perhaps Doug stumbled across some of his late brother's giggle dust. This idea is not likely to survive this government let alone the next one. The price tag will be eye-watering and the province's and city's go-to gambit of whining to the feds to help pay for will no doubt come up dry.

Assuming it would be intended as a limited access express-type route, where it does emerge would be very costly and complex. Assuming only a handful of portals/interchanges, even if you ban dangerous goods, given the large array of plastics, alloys and other synthetic material available. a tunnel of that length creates a dangerous environment for both the general user as well as folks who would have to work down their. An end-to-end bypass tunnel implies a high percentage of commercial motor vehicles and quite frankly I don't trust many of them to safely navigate a surface road let alone a tunnel.

It would be cheaper and more effective to somehow subsidized commercial fleet use of Hwy 407.

 

[Bojaxs]

Somehow the freight bypass on the surface was an unaffordable and unworkable megaprojects yet this is practical? I'm sure a lot more people could be moved for the money by maximizing a regional rail system.

You couldn't be any more right with this post.

Doug Ford and the Conservatives shut down the 407 freight rail bypass not long after getting elected, and then a couple years later come up with this genius proposal. Even if CN didn't want to front any money for the bypass, I'm sure the price tag wouldn't be far off from whatever the cost for this proposal would be.

If we're seriously at the point where we're considering tunneling under the 401, then why isn't talking with CN about the 407 freight bypass not back on the table?

 

[picard102]

This is such a nonsense announcement, I'm actually surprised there's even a thread for it.

 

[ssiguy2]

I wouldn't waste much energy on this. The idea is absurd and the costs will reflect that. It's not going to happen. I could see maybe decking the 401. That would be expensive and disruptive enough, but not nearly so much as tunnelling.

I agree. This tunneling under 14 lanes of highway is ridiculous and, even if you had all the money in the world ,the logistics of hauling away the ground would be insurmountable. Yes, this is an election promise and will never get done ala Wynne's HSR to London but there is a very legitimate concern about the loss of productivity due to Toronto's chocking traffic. The productivity concerns, however, are due goods not being delivered on time and not the workers. Therefore, the only way this would make sense is for an elevated structure along the 401 with 6 lanes................2 for passenger rail and 4 exclusively for the use of transport trucks and interchanges only a key points ie McCowan, DVP/404, 400, 407,and 427.

 

[smallspy]

Over that same time period, have the highways and roads in that same area been receiving billions of dollars worth of expansions and additions?
No.

Are you kidding?

So widening the 401, 427, 404, 400, QEW, 407, plus building extensions to many of those along with the new 412 and 418 is somehow nothing?

Dan

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If we were talking about double-decking the 401, I don't personally believe it's a great solution, but fine, I get the idea. What I don't get is why this government—supposedly from the party of fiscal restraint, or so they say—would embarrass itself by proposing such a technically challenging, exorbitant project that could come with an eventual 12-figure pricetag and likely wouldn't be completed within Doug Ford's lifetime.

To be sure, there are projects worth investing that kind of time and money in (e.g. climate proofing, legitimate high-speed rail) and it would be nice to see governments display that kind of ambition instead of governing for short-term polling and the next election. But this project is not one of them.

1) Election coming up in 2026 (or earlier if Ford tries to jump into Federal politics). Not super close but also not necessarily far enough off to be buying votes
2) Have you seen the local new lately. Traffic has been a big topic basically since classes resumed. The Gardiner construction, 401 construction, etc. DoFo probably felt the need to respond to this issue. Hence, "more lanes will free up gridlock!"
3) He's still a auto centric politician and likely feeling pressure from his donors (read corporations) to do something for cars/roads

 

[asey20]

I agree. This tunneling under 14 lanes of highway is ridiculous and, even if you had all the money in the world ,the logistics of hauling away the ground would be insurmountable. Yes, this is an election promise and will never get done ala Wynne's HSR to London but there is a very legitimate concern about the loss of productivity due to Toronto's chocking traffic. The productivity concerns, however, are due goods not being delivered on time and not the workers. Therefore, the only way this would make sense is for an elevated structure along the 401 with 6 lanes................2 for passenger rail and 4 exclusively for the use of transport trucks and interchanges only a key points ie McCowan, DVP/404, 400, 407,and 427.

Disagree. Workers are a big factor. We cannot absorb enough of our population growth to live near the core employment areas. Something needs to be done to allow for more efficient commuting between the suburbs and core employment areas, and the solution is not just increase the frequency of GO trains. People still need to and will drive.

 

[Bojaxs]

Disagree. Workers are a big factor. We cannot absorb enough of our population growth to live near the core employment areas. Something needs to be done to allow for more efficient commuting between the suburbs and core employment areas, and the solution is not just increase the frequency of GO trains. People still need to and will drive.

The question is, how many people are driving on the 401 right now because they don't have any viable transit options available to them?

I work in logistics and deal with the trucking industry here in the GTA. The drop in productivity in Canada is because trucks are slowed down on the highways and forced to make late deliveries. 401 doesn't need to be widened. It's already wide enough to meet existing truck capacity. We need to take cars off the highway. The 401 is meant to be a freight corridor. Moving goods between the Mid-west, Ontario, and Quebec.

Taking CN trains off the Kitchener line via "The Missing Link/ 407 freight rail bypass" would go a long way to reducing cars on the 401. With no freight trains to get in the way, GO & VIA could increase frequency. VIA can run faster trains to & from London.

 

[mr_content]

1) Election coming up in 2026 (or earlier if Ford tries to jump into Federal politics). Not super close but also not necessarily far enough off to be buying votes

It would be a shock if this buys him any votes he doesn't already have.

2) Have you seen the local new lately.

Unfortunately yes.

Traffic has been a big topic basically since classes resumed. The Gardiner construction, 401 construction, etc. DoFo probably felt the need to respond to this issue.

And boy did he ever!

Hence, "more lanes will free up gridlock!"

Sure. But there's adding more lanes and then there's... this.

3) He's still a auto centric politician and likely feeling pressure from his donors (read corporations) to do something for cars/roads

Sure. But what's he's come forward with is a profoundly unserious idea that would light tens of billions of public dollars on fire and take decades to help a single driver. The problem isn't that he wants to do something for cars/roads. It's that he's come forward with one of the most bizarre and egregiously wasteful infrastructure projects proposed by a sitting government (or even by a remotely serious candidate) in recent memory.

 

[guavadelic]

The question is, how many people are driving on the 401 right now because they don't have any viable transit options available to them?

I work in logistics and deal with the trucking industry here in the GTA. The drop in productivity in Canada is because trucks are slowed down on the highways and forced to make late deliveries. 401 doesn't need to be widened. It's already wide enough to meet existing truck capacity. We need to take cars off the highway. The 401 is meant to be a freight corridor. Moving goods between the Mid-west, Ontario, and Quebec.

Taking CN trains off the Kitchener line via "The Missing Link/ 407 freight rail bypass" would go a long way to reducing cars on the 401. With no freight trains to get in the way, GO & VIA could increase frequency. VIA can run faster trains to & from London.

This x100.

 

[guavadelic]

Can't remember a more outlandish proposal from a government, an insult to our collective intelligence.
I guess this is what folks mean when they say voting has consequences.

 

[2323]

This reminds me of his napkin drawing of the ultimate Ontario Line loop. Just like there, in reality we’ll probably only see the Ontario line go north to Sheppard or Steeles, I could only realistically see this project in the scope of fixing the 427-409 bottleneck. It could actually be feasible there, as it is not such a great distance and you could realistically cut and cover it. As for the whole tunnel, it’s also just not practical to shove more bottlenecks on either side of the 401. What’s going to happen on either side of the tunnel’s entrance when 20 lanes have to merge to 14, then have to merge to 10. It’s going to create catastrophic traffic for no particular reason. And then we get into the complexity and weaving of how you possibly integrate more entrance ramps into the 401’s already crowded footprint. I’m not against highway expansion, in fact I usually support it, but this just makes the least possible sense to me. Heck, make the 407 collector-express before you do this. Build another crosstown. Or two.

 

[Bordercollie]

Likely a large percentage of vehicles is the trucks that use the 401 to pass through Toronto to get to other places. If you want to go from east to west you must travel through Toronto.

An incentive for truck companies to bypass Toronto and load onto trains would be a t reasonable proposal. Trucks travelling more than 500km can receive a tax credit for using trains.

As for local travel you need to extend the Sheppard line west to the airport and east to Scarborough center. That would be a start.

 

[Bojaxs]

An incentive for truck companies to bypass Toronto and load onto trains would be a t reasonable proposal.

Most of the trucks on the 401 are "last mile" trucks, typically going between warehouses, cross dock facilities and container yards. CN & CPKC have done a lot to take Toronto - Montreal trucks off the 401. But if you have to drop off a load at Coburg, you're going to truck it, cause the freight train won't stop there.

 

[Bordercollie]

Most of the trucks on the 401 are "last mile" trucks, typically going between warehouses, cross dock facilities and container yards. CN & CPKC have done a lot to take Toronto - Montreal trucks off the 401. But if you have to drop off a load at Coburg, you're going to truck it, cause the freight train won't stop there.

The CP express between Toronto and Montreal was cancelled due to lack of demand. That would suggest that trucking it directly is cheaper.