Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan

[afransen]

In the UK I have never seen a stop sign. Every non-signaled intersection is a give way or yield. I'm a big fan of roundabouts for safety, especially as a motorcyclist, plus they also discourage roadside begging as the traffic doesn't regularly stop.

Panhandling debate goes round and round

Sometimes, the newspaper covers a problem and then provides a solution in the same edition. It’s like magic. On Tuesday, …

www.thegazette.com

"You really can't panhandle at roundabouts, unless you're especially quick and agile. Unlike a regular old intersection, the cars don't stop, at least not for long. There's barely even time to read a tale of woe scribbled on cardboard. So, basically, if we want to end panhandling, we need more roundabouts."

But can we figure out how to use them?

That has got to be a failure of signage and public engagement. Even if it is the first roundabout in the area, you can usually address this by an overabundance of signage, directional arrows, no entry signs etc.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I hate roundabouts as a cyclist and pedestrian. You have to watch for traffic that, coming out of the roundabout, isn't watching for you.

Cyclists I agree have some challenges, but Aren't the pedestrian crossings put further back, and with no cars coming only from one direction before you get to the island, without sharp corners, it seems safe.

 

[lenaitch]

In the UK I have never seen a stop sign. Every non-signaled intersection is a give way or yield. I'm a big fan of roundabouts for safety, especially as a motorcyclist, plus they also discourage roadside begging as the traffic doesn't regularly stop.

Panhandling debate goes round and round

Sometimes, the newspaper covers a problem and then provides a solution in the same edition. It’s like magic. On Tuesday, …

www.thegazette.com

"You really can't panhandle at roundabouts, unless you're especially quick and agile. Unlike a regular old intersection, the cars don't stop, at least not for long. There's barely even time to read a tale of woe scribbled on cardboard. So, basically, if we want to end panhandling, we need more roundabouts."

But can we figure out how to use them?

That's frighteningly hilarious. There were so many vehicles on the opposite side of the road I wasn't sure what country this was from. It would be interesting to see what signage was installed. Although it does seem counterintuitive to post signs to tell people not to drive on the left side of the road, it seems not. I have witnessed this at a roundabout.

I'm still a little leery while in the circle, especially on the bike, but seems to be getting much better. I imagine in the US they put roundabouts in the same category as metric, non-American football and gun control.

 

[Northern Light]

Cyclists I agree have some challenges, but Aren't the pedestrian crossings put further back, and with no cars coming only from one direction before you get to the island, without sharp corners, it seems safe.

Imagine the vehicle approaching from the left side; and a pedestrian at the crosswalk on the right hand side.

I see several problems. The first is any potential visual obstruction in the centre of the roundabout. (sculpture, tree etc.) which could prevent the driver from seeing the pedestrian on the other side.
Even if there were no obstruction there, a car already in the roundabout may block one's view through to the crosswalk.

So then, you make a right into the circle to go around........your requirement is to look hard left to ensure no car is coming in your lane, and then hard right to see any cars that may be approaching from the south. Neither of these encompass a line-of-sight to the crosswalk.

As you travel through the circle, in constant motion, you then move to exit on the far side, but your view of the near (south side) is partially obstructed up to the last moment. (in the real world there are likely buildings/trees/fences on those corners); your opportunity to become aware of the pedestrian is 5-7M in advance, at most, mid-turn, (in motion), that doesn't give much room to apply the brakes.

I can't say I'm sold on the merits.

On top of all that, they consume extra space.

 

[kEiThZ]

Have any studies been done on the value of painted bicycle gutters vs just riding on the sidewalk?

Personally, I have zero interest in riding 2 ft away from cars going 60-80 kph. Meanwhile, sidewalks in most suburbs have barely a soul on them. So I use them. I have always wondered if formalizing this might achieve more than trying to build more dedicated bicycling infrastructure. Especially in lower density suburbs.

 

[afransen]

Dutch roundabouts have some improvements to these concerns. They are more cyclist friendly by having separate cycling facilities. They also make the approaches less fluid to lower speeds in the roundabout and make it so cars are meeting cyclist/ped crossings at 90 degrees. Also, have a car-length set back from the circle so that drivers are only navigating one conflict at a time.

Roundabouts don't necessarily need more space. Many intersections have three+ approach lanes (left turn, right turn and through) whereas a roundabout just needs one. Even a turbo roundabout just needs two approach lanes and one exit lane.

 

[afransen]

Have any studies been done on the value of painted bicycle gutters vs just riding on the sidewalk?

Personally, I have zero interest in riding 2 ft away from cars going 60-80 kph. Meanwhile, sidewalks in most suburbs have barely a soul on them. So I use them. I have always wondered if formalizing this might achieve more than trying to build more dedicated bicycling infrastructure. Especially in lower density suburbs.

But seriously, I think this idea has merit. We just need to formalize the need to yield to peds. Tricky in urban areas though because they are legitimately busy enough that you shouldn't have bikes on the sidewalk. A lot of suburbs are doing this by upgrading sidewalks to MUPs. They are quite a bit wider than standard sidewalks though.

 

[PinkLucy]

Sidewalks aren’t generally wide enough and are bumpy. Proper paved cycling “roads” are much better. The other problem with sidewalks and many separated trails here is the risk presented by the driveways, entry ways etc that intersect them. If I have to ride off the road, I ride facing traffic so I can see cars turning in, rather than get hit from behind because a driver wasn’t looking for a cyclist to cross.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'll take the risk of someone pulling out or into a driveway while I'm riding on a suburban sidewalk over sharing the road with F150s driving at 80 kph, just a few feet away.

i understand in busier areas, nobody wants riders on the sidewalk. But who the hell wants to ride on the road here:

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[Admiral Beez]

i understand in busier areas, nobody wants riders on the sidewalk. But who the hell wants to ride on the road here:

I see that on westbound Gerrard between River and Parliament where many cyclists ride on the sidewalk, dodging around unsuspecting pedestrians. It’s an example of problem transference, where cyclists have a problem, they don’t feel safe, whereas the pedestrians on the sidewalk are (save curb hopping cars) safe, until the cyclists decide to solve their problem of a safety deficit by making safety the pedestrians’ problem. The solution is of course for cyclists to keep off the sidewalk, at least in urban settings and ride your bicycle on the road, accepting the risks or choosing another route. Or, do what I do, if I’m on the sidewalk with my bicycle I’m walking beside it.

It’s a funny thing how we only want to follow the law when it doesn’t inconvenience us, and only want it enforced when someone else is doing what we don’t like.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Sidewalks aren’t generally wide enough and are bumpy. Proper paved cycling “roads” are much better. The other problem with sidewalks and many separated trails here is the risk presented by the driveways, entry ways etc that intersect them. If I have to ride off the road, I ride facing traffic so I can see cars turning in, rather than get hit from behind because a driver wasn’t looking for a cyclist to cross.

MUP/Proper separated bike lane > sidewalk > bike gutter/sharrow/snow-storage area/parking lane.

I will agree that sidewalks suck, and are uncomfortable to ride on, and driveways are a major hazard - my sidewalk riding speed is about half of that on a MUP, separated lane, or minor road. I also try to ride on the "wrong" side of the road.

On routes that I bike on frequently, I will memorize some side-streets to bike on, instead of main arterials/arterial sidewalks.

I see that on westbound Gerrard between River and Parliament where many cyclists ride on the sidewalk, dodging around unsuspecting pedestrians. It’s an example of problem transference, where cyclists have a problem, they don’t feel safe, whereas the pedestrians on the sidewalk are (save curb hopping cars) safe, until the cyclists decide to solve their problem of a safety deficit by making safety the pedestrians’ problem. The solution is of course for cyclists to keep off the sidewalk, at least in urban settings and ride your bicycle on the road, accepting the risks or choosing another route. Or, do what I do, if I’m on the sidewalk with my bicycle I’m walking beside it.

The problem comes down to bike infrastructure (or the lack thereof).

It’s a funny thing how we only want to follow the law when it doesn’t inconvenience us, and only want it enforced when someone else is doing what we don’t like.

*cough* Speeding *cough*

 

[evandyk]

*cough* Speeding *cough*

And stopping at stop signs or cross-walks. Stopping rather than accelerating when the light turns yellow. Signaling before changing lanes. No passing while driving through crosswalk zones. Driving past open streetcar doors. Yielding for transit vehicles. Etc. etc. etc.

But we all know the TPS stopped enforcing traffic laws for cars a decade ago, so this is old news. But make sure you stop at the stop sign when biking through High Park, or you'll get that big ticket.

 

[Admiral Beez]

And stopping at stop signs or cross-walks. Stopping rather than accelerating when the light turns yellow. Signaling before changing lanes. No passing while driving through crosswalk zones. Driving past open streetcar doors. Yielding for transit vehicles. Etc. etc. etc.

TPS stopped enforcing all laws except for revenue speed traps where the posted limit doesn't match the road (like the Bloor Viaduct's 40 kph) a lifetime ago. I'd much rather see police target stop sign and other pedestrian-risking violations than speeding. Speeding can't be ignored of course, and opportunities for speeding should be designed out of the road design. About ten years ago my wife found a TPS officer hiding behind the tree of our driveway, catching any driver that rolled through the four way stop sign near our place. Needless to say, my wife was pleased to see the officer and offered her coffee and water.

I do think we've gone a little crazy on four way stop signs. In England I don't think I've ever seen a stop sign, every intersection, even those in urban areas is a yield, and it seems to work there. Best I can tell, there are almost no un-signaled mandatory stops in the U.K.

 

[imerk]

I'll take the risk of someone pulling out or into a driveway while I'm riding on a suburban sidewalk over sharing the road with F150s driving at 80 kph, just a few feet away.

i understand in busier areas, nobody wants riders on the sidewalk. But who the hell wants to ride on the road here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

Totally agreed that the suburbs need to do a better job of providing safe and comfortable cycling facilities. Like look at the size of the boulevard there! Why isn't it being used? Why wouldn't the cycle track be adjacent to the sidewalk, with extra separation between active transportation and vehicular traffic?

I grew up riding my bike all over North York, almost exclusively on sidewalks. For years I rode up Bathurst from Steeles to Lawrence for my part time job. I might get the odd look from a disgruntled grandma on the sidewalk, but I was always a courteous pre-teen cyclist and never ran into anybody. So I'm all for allowing that.

I'd love to see better use of the grass boulevards on arterials in less urban areas of the City. And for those wide streets we see in residential subdivisions, it seems like a no brainer to install some curbs and a two-way facility at the edge to facilitate those "last mile" trips.

 

[afransen]

Totally agreed that the suburbs need to do a better job of providing safe and comfortable cycling facilities. Like look at the size of the boulevard there! Why isn't it being used? Why wouldn't the cycle track be adjacent to the sidewalk, with extra separation between active transportation and vehicular traffic?

The North American "complete street" paradigm is misguided. The damage of vehicular cycling is still being felt in the thinking that bicycles belong in painted gutters over maximal separation adjacent to sidewalks.