VIA Rail

[Bordercollie]

Right now VIA takes 2h from Montreal to Brockville direct. If they get Montreal-Ottawa-Brockville to run in 2 hours then there is a huge operational efficiency realized. Montreal to Ottawa seems like it should be possible in around 1h (travelling 187km). VIA is already doing Ottawa to Brockville in 1h 16min (travelling 111km). So it seems possible with the right investment to get Montreal-Ottawa-Brockville to happen in the same time as Montreal-Brockville direct takes today, and as long as that can be achieved without touching the Smith Falls to Brockville segment the investment is 100% applicable to the HFR goal. To me this seems like the minimal investment option.

Getting VIA to run through Peterborough or Trois-Rivieres are obviously much larger investments and because they aren't along a route that VIA travels now to any large degree, there aren't as many options to make incremental investments that immediately add value unless they do those investments in partnership with GO/Metrolinx or EXO/RTM. For example a partnership with GO to launch service Union to Box Grove with a Leaside yard, or EXO to launch a service from Centrale to Repentigny or Mascouche which is slightly more direct than it is today.

Trenton junction and port hope are already there. It wouldn't take much to extend the platform or run 4 car bi-levels to those stations.

Why not make use of what's there already?

The ridership is not there because the trains don't stop there. There has been a lot more development in-between those areas.

Isn't GO going to be expending into Bowmanville using the CP Belleville sub? It can continue on to Trenton Junction and cross back to the Kingston Sub.

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412205259175378947

 

[crs1026]

How's it get to St-Martin Jct though - last time I took VIA to Lanoraie it was through the tunnel.

And it certainly wasn't anywhere near 170 km/hr. There's a lot of upgrades required just to achieve that speed. I'm not sure the stations are even there anymore.

That’s the 492 Million dollar question…. Do they follow the old CP routing to Parc, maybe ending at Lucien L’Allier…. Or do they go around the connecting track at Mascouche and take the CN to Ballantyne?
Neither option is that appealing…. And the time involved makes the idea of 200 km/h in the middle a bit moot. The last ten miles into Quebec will be pretty slow also.
if that’s what this announcement is all about, it will be interesting to see how the money is stretched to deliver the requiring signalling and traffic control.
Just upgrading crossings will be expensive as many don’t even have gates, and the physical condition of the crissings is often poor.
And then there are the stretches if bolted rail….
All fixable, but the dollars only stretch so far.

- Paul

 

[EnviroTO]

Trenton junction and port hope are already there. It wouldn't take much to extend the platform or run 4 car bi-levels to those stations.

I have no idea how your post responds to mine. This is a solution to faster Ottawa Montreal service? This is a solution to service in Peterborough or Trois-Rivieres? I don't get it.

 

[Bordercollie]

That’s the 492 Million dollar question…. Do they follow the old CP routing to Parc, maybe ending at Lucien L’Allier…. Or do they go around the connecting track at Mascouche and take the CN to Ballantyne?
Neither option is that appealing…. And the time involved makes the idea of 200 km/h in the middle a bit moot. The last ten miles into Quebec will be pretty slow also.
if that’s what this announcement is all about, it will be interesting to see how the money is stretched to deliver the requiring signalling and traffic control.
Just upgrading crossings will be expensive as many don’t even have gates, and the physical condition of the crissings is often poor.
And then there are the stretches if bolted rail….
All fixable, but the dollars only stretch so far.

- Paul

Are you saying that because crossings with lights are required at speeds beyond 100mph?

What's wrong with speeds of 100mph where it's allowed and excess in places where it's allowed?

I guess passing sidings would be a requirement also.

 

[EnviroTO]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412205259175378947

Perpetually perpetuated delays by freight trains in Ste-Perpetue QC on the trip to announce funding for HFR . Perfect.

 

[crs1026]

Are you saying that because crossings with lights are required at speeds beyond 100mph?

What's wrong with speeds of 100mph where it's allowed and excess in places where it's allowed?

I guess passing sidings would be a requirement also.

Gates are required even below 100 if you are running passenger, yes.

All possible speed is desirable, but there’s a practical limit to how many speed up and slow down zones there can be. When the spacing of crossings is fairly close, as it is on the Trois Rivieres line, there’s not much point in trying to accelerate beyond the top speed over the crossings. Much fuel expended and only seconds gained.

I hope this announcement will be the start of more specific information about what’s planned.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

That’s the 492 Million dollar question…. Do they follow the old CP routing to Parc, maybe ending at Lucien L’Allier…. Or do they go around the connecting track at Mascouche and take the CN to Ballantyne?
Neither option is that appealing…. And the time involved makes the idea of 200 km/h in the middle a bit moot. The last ten miles into Quebec will be pretty slow also.
if that’s what this announcement is all about, it will be interesting to see how the money is stretched to deliver the requiring signalling and traffic control.
Just upgrading crossings will be expensive as many don’t even have gates, and the physical condition of the crissings is often poor.
And then there are the stretches if bolted rail….
All fixable, but the dollars only stretch so far.

- Paul

That brings up an interesting point. Crossing gates aren't sufficient for 200 km/h service, you need full separation. If many of the crossings on the Trois-Rivières Sub don't have gates, then rather than paying to install them, use that cost as a down payment towards grade separation. I know that is significantly more expensive, but why waste money on building new gates, if in the long term VIA will want grade separation? Besides, looking at the Canadian Rail Atlas, there are a lot fewer level crossings along the Trois-Rivières Sub than many other stretches of the HFR route, and it is one of the longest, straightest sections. The track between Richmond (the Ottawa suburb, not Richmond Hill), and Smiths Falls would also be low hanging fruit for 200km/h service and that is also useful for trains between Ottawa and Kingston.

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412214806698921993

 

[crs1026]

That brings up an interesting point. Crossing gates aren't sufficient for 200 km/h service, you need full separation. If many of the crossings on the Trois-Rivières Sub don't have gates, then rather than paying to install them, use that cost as a down payment towards grade separation. I know that is significantly more expensive, but why waste money on building new gates, if in the long term VIA will want grade separation?

I would expect that VIA would want to replace the entire crossing circuitry and lighting at every crossing. Most of what’s there probably dates from several decades back, and may not meet current standards for light intensity, lens diameter, etc - let alone current microprocessor electronics and data capability (eg cameras). So it’s more than just slapping a set of gates on the existing appliances.

A single overpass can run $40M whereas a new gate installation might run $1M. At that differential, VIA doesn’t have a lot of room to add grade separation.

The Trois Rivieres line has a whack of private farm crossings, too… I wonder what will become of all those.

But I agree with you - the Smiths Falls Sub already has grade separations done or under way, and it would be the perfect place to raise speeds.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

I don't get why anybody expects more than the travel times the Globe and Mail had a few years back. The "up to 200 kph" doesn't change anything. That's just the nameplate top speed of a Charger/Venture trainset. So unless the government is committing to substantially more investment, we should expect more than what was long rumoured.

Personally, I have always argued, they shouldn't electrify this time and just spend $6-7B to get a corridor that yields decent travel time, getting Toronto-Ottawa under 3 hrs and Toronto-Montreal under 4 hrs.

I think that that should be the goal as well. Get the travel times down using non-electrified dedicated track, mostly on existing ROWs. Spend the money on grade separations and bypasses of curvy sections of the existing ROW, which would yield a series of incremental gains.

It may even be worth it to re-lay the track between Peterborough and Smiths Falls almost entirely on the existing ROW (with only a few bypasses like around Sharbot Lake), and then tender re-alignments as a separate project, as those will need to go through land acquisitions, etc. Get the service up and running, and then make even more incremental improvements.

Basically taking a page out of GO's book. Start with the service, make strategic investments to shave a few minutes off here, add capacity for an extra run here, and eventually you'll have a pretty damn good line.

 

[nfitz]

Right now VIA takes 2h from Montreal to Brockville direct. If they get Montreal-Ottawa-Brockville to run in 2 hours then there is a huge operational efficiency realized.

298 km through Alexandria, compared to 204 km through Cornwall ... Cornwall is going to be much faster. Historically they've done it in 105 minutes.

Montreal to Ottawa seems like it should be possible in around 1h (travelling 187km).

How - historically it's nearly 20 minutes just to get to Dorval (35 minutes currently). So 40 minutes to go go 168 km - including the stop in Ottawa?

 

[Bordercollie]

I would expect that VIA would want to replace the entire crossing circuitry and lighting at every crossing. Most of what’s there probably dates from several decades back, and may not meet current standards for light intensity, lens diameter, etc - let alone current microprocessor electronics and data capability (eg cameras). So it’s more than just slapping a set of gates on the existing appliances.

A single overpass can run $40M whereas a new gate installation might run $1M. At that differential, VIA doesn’t have a lot of room to add grade separation.

The Trois Rivieres line has a whack of private farm crossings, too… I wonder what will become of all those.

But I agree with you - the Smiths Falls Sub already has grade separations done or under way, and it would be the perfect place to raise speeds.

- Paul

The Chatham Sub has crossings without crossing arms at 90mph.

 

[Urban Sky]

How - historically it's nearly 20 minutes just to get to Dorval (35 minutes currently). So 40 minutes to go go 168 km - including the stop in Ottawa?

It's the kind of travel time estimates you get from people who don't grasp the difference between maximum and average speed. To compare: the Ecotrain Study estimated a travel time of 1:11 hours for their F-200 scenario (0:57 for E-300) and that still required a level of infrastructure works which escalated per-km capital costs to several times what we've ever seen mentioned for HFR...

 

[kEiThZ]

It's the kind of travel time estimates you get from people who don't grasp the difference between maximum and average speed. To compare: the Ecotrain Study estimated a travel time of 1:11 hours for their F-200 scenario (0:57 for E-300) and that still required a level of infrastructure works which escalated per-km capital costs to several times what we've ever seen mentioned for HFR...

Any idea what it would take to get Ottawa-Montreal down to 1:15 hrs?

I would think there's return in increasing speed here. Benefits Toronto-Montreal travelers while also vastly boosting the commutability of Ottawa-Montreal.

I had always guessed it might be something like a billion....