Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Transportfan]

The flowerpot shields are not consistently used on MTO signs in Peel Region - such as Mayfield Road (RR 14) and Bovaird Drive (RR 107/RR 10) on the 410. Peel, where two of the three municipalities are almost entirely urbanized and where regional roads are based on a old county road system developed for a mostly rural place, the regional designations are increasingly meaningless, especially when Highways 5 and 10 were entirely downloaded to the cities, but Highways 7, 24, and 50 downloaded to the region.

I find if odd that regions maintain numbered road system in urban areas while counties rarely do even in non-separated towns. Even Waterloo Region does despite K-W being traditional cities. Metropolitan Toronto (logically) did not.

The reason Highways 2, 5, and 10 were downloaded to the cities was because they were under municipal control (at least in sections) before regionalization, and didn't form through-corridors. It's also unusual that the Peel cities have quite a few non-regional arterial roads.

 

[lenaitch]

I think there was an issue with this bridge wasn't there... like an expansion joint causing a severe bump in the road? You'd think it would be unacceptable to have a single point of failure in our east/west transportation route. From a strategic standpoint that is pretty foolish.

The problem was with the first new bridge, not the old one, shortly after it opened. I believe an alternative route was examined but rejected for cost. At least now there are two bridges, albeit side-by-each. From a strategic national interest standpoint, two routes would have to be retained and I assume the existing bridge was reaching end of life, all for an AADT of about 5K(2016), about 1/6 of Hwy 11 @ Orillia. We generally aren't big on worrying about our strategic public infrastructure anyway.

 

[lenaitch]

When a freeway is built next to an existing highway (ex: Former Hwy 2 and 401) Ontario usually downloads the provincial highway that runs parallel to the freeway. Virtually in every other province and even in the states, the provincial/state highway is usually kept as an alternate route if it's important enough even though it was bypassed by a freeway. Notice how the US Highway system is still mostly intact even after most of the network was paralled with Interstates? Even the ones that got completely replaced like US-66 are still signed as historic US highways.

In Ontario, even though CR-2 next to the 401 is downloaded, it should at least be signed as a historic highway. Same thing can be done for Highways 7, 10, 11, 24 which all had significant sections downloaded.

I'm also suprised that Hwy 7 between Markham and Brooklin wasn't downloaded when the 407 was extended.

I see what your are saying and will take your word for it - I haven't looked at the US highway system enough. Route 66 really isn't a good example. It is very discontinuous and only exists where it does by virtue of local or state government interest, mostly tourism.

 

[Steve X]

For the amount of money they need to build an alternative, the would better use that money to improve the current highway and expand to 4 lanes instead. CP and CN both have their own railways through Northern Ontario, so the country isn't screwed if the highway is blocked for a few days. Most freight would just move around normally.

Highway 2 used to be the interprovincial highway. It's the highway that links all 4 capitals of the first provinces of Canada. The route is mostly bypassed by freeways now except the Route 185 section in Quebec that's being twinned/bypassed. The numbering started to fall apart as Quebec renumbered their entire highway network in the 70s. Nova Scotia renumbered their twinned/bypassed section to Hwy 102/104 so that Trunk 2 doesn't even reach the NB/NS boarder. NB moved the Route 2 designation to the newly built freeway and renumber the original Hwy 2 to minor highways. Quebec's route 2 is made of multiple highways like 338, 138, 132 and 185. Ontario totally downgraded the highway.

So history is totally lost and most people wouldn't know that a single designation existed between Windsor and Halifax. Nor would someone know Route 2 is NB was once the same designation that the Gardiner carried.

 

[Kitsune]

There are plans floating around somewhere that will see Highway 11 get a new route through Nipigon - I saw them a few years ago. I've had no luck trying to find the website for the project though.

 

[whydidimakethis]

There are plans floating around somewhere that will see Highway 11 get a new route through Nipigon - I saw them a few years ago. I've had no luck trying to find the website for the project though.

I think Ontario scrapped those a long time ago

https://www.ckdr.net/2020/06/11/ontario-not-looking-at-alternative-to-nipigon-bridge/

I think their logic is that since the bridge is twinned, it is highly unlikely both spans with fail at the same time so if one span fails, traffic will just move to the other one.

 

[lenaitch]

For the amount of money they need to build an alternative, the would better use that money to improve the current highway and expand to 4 lanes instead. CP and CN both have their own railways through Northern Ontario, so the country isn't screwed if the highway is blocked for a few days. Most freight would just move around normally.

Highway 2 used to be the interprovincial highway. It's the highway that links all 4 capitals of the first provinces of Canada. The route is mostly bypassed by freeways now except the Route 185 section in Quebec that's being twinned/bypassed. The numbering started to fall apart as Quebec renumbered their entire highway network in the 70s. Nova Scotia renumbered their twinned/bypassed section to Hwy 102/104 so that Trunk 2 doesn't even reach the NB/NS boarder. NB moved the Route 2 designation to the newly built freeway and renumber the original Hwy 2 to minor highways. Quebec's route 2 is made of multiple highways like 338, 138, 132 and 185. Ontario totally downgraded the highway.

So history is totally lost and most people wouldn't know that a single designation existed between Windsor and Halifax. Nor would someone know Route 2 is NB was once the same designation that the Gardiner carried.

Twinning the entire TCH route (pick one) through northern Ontario isn't justified on either traffic volume or collision data. Sure, it would vastly reduce 'cross line' head-on collisions, but twinned carriageway roads are not collision free.

 

[Kitsune]

.. there is a standard for the Trans Canada highway that says it should be twinned. 17 prolly should be twinned from the 417 to Sault Ste Marie. It really should be only to the 11/17 intersection ... but to keep everyone happy it would have to extend to Sault ste Marie. I dont really get the point why highway 11 / 69 are/being upgraded to 400 series standards when really a twinned route would with interchanges on some secondary highway intersections would do.

 

[lenaitch]

*If* there is a standard, it is either a guideline or aspirational goal. Ontario is certainly not the only province where a TCH route is two-laned.

 

[Kitsune]

.BC though is actively twinning or reengineering highway 1 between the Coquihalla and Alberta/BC border. The only thing that seems to be dragging is the four laning in Yoho National Park. I also believe I think its Route 85 is either twinned or being twinned too in Quebec. Once those two provinces are done in 5-10 years.. That will leave Ontario and the two island provinces with the only main branch 2 lane trans canada highway sections.

 

[ShonTron]

Twinning the entire TCH route (pick one) through northern Ontario isn't justified on either traffic volume or collision data. Sure, it would vastly reduce 'cross line' head-on collisions, but twinned carriageway roads are not collision free.

The 2+1 layout, popular in Scandinavia, which offers significant improvements to safety and capacity, is probably warranted on some parts of Highways 11 and 17, but definitely not twinning, which should be reserved for the Thunder Bay-Nipigon section (already partially completed), the Kenora-Manitoba section (already planned), and possibly extensions of four-lane sections between Sault Ste. Marie and North Bay.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Even Sault Ste Marie to Sudbury is overkill, especially given the difficult terrain involved.

IMO extending the 417 to Petawawa, twinning 17 between North Bay and Espanola, building a bypass of Sault St Marie, and upgrading the Thunder Bay Expressway is all that's needed in terms of "freeway" type upgrades in the north. Otherwise you can built a few 2+1 stretches across 11 and 17 for passing and maybe a few 2+1 bypasses of a few towns, and be good. Maybe set a standard where there is a passing lane every 25km or something, so you never have to wait more than 15 mins to pass someone.

Most of 11/17 have AADTs below 2,000. That's absurdly low.

 

[lenaitch]

The 2+1 layout, popular in Scandinavia, which offers significant improvements to safety and capacity, is probably warranted on some parts of Highways 11 and 17, but definitely not twinning, which should be reserved for the Thunder Bay-Nipigon section (already partially completed), the Kenora-Manitoba section (already planned), and possibly extensions of four-lane sections between Sault Ste. Marie and North Bay.

It seems the province has agreed to do a trial patch of the 2+1 due to extensive lobbying by folks in the Timiskaming Shores area.

Province does about-face on 2+1 road trial

Temiskaming safety group convinces transportation minister to study European road system

www.northernontariobusiness.com

 

[whydidimakethis]

It seems the province has agreed to do a trial patch of the 2+1 due to extensive lobbying by folks in the Timiskaming Shores area.

Interesting. Maybe if successful it can be implemented on some of Southern Ontario's busier untwinned highways. Highway 9 would probably benifit a lot from this design.

 

[Haljackey]

Interesting. Maybe if successful it can be implemented on some of Southern Ontario's busier untwinned highways. Highway 9 would probably benifit a lot from this design.

Not really. Too many businesses and home/farm driveways on #9. This setup is best for places in the middle of the wilderness where a 4-lane divided highway isn't warranted.