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Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

transportman said:
The town needs to stop the waste and shut down the railway. The companies in Orangeville are profitable, they don't need a municipal transport subsidy. There is a perfectly good road network that they could be using instead. The line would make an excellent trail. The RoW is to scenic to be wasted on a freight railway.
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Just wow.

You are ferociously opposed to railways and joined UT just to say so.

I don't think you'll find many fans of your positions here, which are rather anti-urban, and anti-government.

This is not the home of reactionary politics.
 
^ As best I can tell, these two articles from August 2019 are the latest media coverage of the status. One of them was posted in the previous page.

www.orangeville.com

Companies using Orangeville Brampton Railway reveal how its sale could impact economy, community

THE ISSUE: Economic impact of selling railway LOCAL IMPACT: It costs taxpayers money, supports major employers
www.orangeville.com www.orangeville.com

citizen.on.ca

Industrial sector seek to end “misinformation” on rail line

By Mike Baker Representatives from Orangeville’s industrial sector are seeking to set the record straight regarding what they perceive to be “misinformation” about the Orangeville-Brampton Railway …
citizen.on.ca citizen.on.ca
 
On the flip side, given the challenges in the economy and job losses, maybe Council will want to do everything it can to hold on to it's local manufacturing. Yes, some plastic products are being banned, but with the rise of covid-19 and the need for plastic for the health care sector, I think there could still be a market. But now I'm going off topic and speculating on something I'm def not an expert in.
 
idekman said:
It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out. In the context of the recovery, it may make more sense to turn it into a trail if the industries that use it are dying. Perhaps it makes more sense for Orangeville to deindustrialize and focus on tourism. I'm interested to hear what others have to say about this.
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I’m not sure if giving up on industry and replacing it with tourism would be a net benifit to the town. Yes, certain plastics are being banned, but the bans are typically focused on single use plastics, not plastics in general. So overall, I’m not sure if the plastics industry is dying.

We also have to remember that Orangeville is a long way from Brampton and Streetsville. You aren’t going to get large numbers of people travelling all the way from the GTA to Orangeville on the trail. Also there is a question of ownership if the rail line is torn up. There is no way that Orangeville would keep ownership of the entire line, as they wouldn’t want to pay taxes on the Caledon, Brampton, and Mississauga portions (an issue right now).

If the goal is to use this corridor for tourism, rail is the best bang for your buck.
The Credit Valley Explorer was very successful. It operated at 96% of its seats sold out in its final years. What would have been excellent is if you boarded the train in Brampton or Mississauga, rode the train to Orangeville, then disembarked and explored the town for a few hours, and returned. Rail would physically get people from the GTA to Orangeville, whereas a trail would only do this for a small number of people.

If Orangeville was smart, they’d convince Metrolinx to buy the corridor as a rail bank for future service. That would solve their taxation issue, a large portion of the cost of the OBRY. Would Metrolinx want to do this? Probably not. But with some political pressure it could happen.

I’ll also add that Trillium is doing a lot of work on this rail line. If it was certainly doomed, I don’t think that they’d be doing it.
 
I'm curious if there is an example of a municipality, anywhere, that has "deindustrialized" as an action of public policy. I'm not sure there is evidence that the industries that rely on the rail line are dying (beyond any Covid related general downturn). I'm also not convinced the town "wants it gone". No doubt they would like it to be more profitable, much like Barrie and any other municipality that hosts a spur line.

I don't know what products the customer industries produce, but beyond things like single use plastic bags, packaging, etc., anyone who thinks plastics in general are on the way out in the near term hasn't had a good look around.
 
idekman said:
Numerous local politicians have said they want it gone, including the mayor.
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They want the cost off of their books. If the railway could break even I think it would stay. Also Orangeville politics are quite tumultuous so there is a chance that Sandy Brown is gone in 2022.
 
idekman said:
Numerous local politicians have said they want it gone, including the mayor.



That in itself is enough to sink the line's biggest customer, Clorox. They make garbage bags. That is quite the single use plastic. If that gets banned, they are going to be put out of business, and with them gone, the business case to keep the line becomes weaker and the mayor's case for a trail becomes harder to dispute. It is all very concerning stuff, and the lack of diversification in the customer base has put the line in a pretty bad spot.

What is even more concerning is that they have had 20 years to build up a customer base and nothing has happened. The 6 customers that used it in 2000 are the same ones using it today. No increase in customer base, and there is no reason the think it will improve, in fact, it is only inevitable that the customer base will continue to shrink. It makes a lot of sense that Cando pulled out. There is no future here. You know your railroad is in a bad spot when even the prospects for the BCRY are stronger.
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Just out of curiosity, did you join UT just to talk about OBRY? (It's the only thread you've commented on)

There was someone in the past who joined UT in the past just to express certain views about OBRY. I don't think that person is on UT anymore. It almost seems like you are hoping the line will be abandoned.
 
A few points, in no particular order of significance:

- I'm not convinced the burghers so much want it gone as they would rather not subsidize it. Barrie city council is having the same discussions right now as are no doubt any other municipality that has a financial stake in a rail line, airport, etc.
- One problem with municipal politics and financial management is they are pretty much limited to in-year or at best term of office budgetting. Playing, and convincing the taxpayers into paying for, the long game is difficult. Not many government undertakings show black ink at the end of the year. The probably realize that, once gone, it ain't comin' back, and not only do you lose the industries you have, you forever restrict attracting any new rail-dependent ones. Does anyone honestly think Alliston or Ingersol would have auto plants if they weren't on rail?
- The fact that the line has had the same customers for the last number of years is more a reflection of the state of industry in Canada than it is on any one municipality. Keeping, let alone attracting, industry to smaller centres is exceedingly difficult. A few years ago, a new siding was laid off the BCRY in Barrie for a new customer. It was hailed at the time as the first new industrial siding in 'x' years. Alas, about a year later to plant changed hands and production moved.
- I agree that single use plastics have been under fire (pre-Covid), but I'm not sure that extends to heavy garbage bags. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that has targetted them, simply because there is currently no alternative.
- Expecting industries to be the sole payer for the public or private carrier infrastructure they use is a tad unrealistic. If you are the only house on a short street, do you pay the full shot for road maintenance?
- There admittedly might be a social or financial benefit to a trail, but I highly doubt it would be "huge", a cold comfort to the employees who would be out of work.
 
Plastics aren't going anywhere. The feedstock and disposal methods might change. But plastics are far too useful to be replaced completely. Single use consumer plastic should be sensible.
 
It’s still a darn shame that the Midwestern Ontario Railway didn’t end up buying the whole line from Streetsville to Owen Sound. If the deal hadn’t fallen through, I think that there would have been sufficient business to keep the whole thing going.
 
alexanderglista said:
It’s still a darn shame that the Midwestern Ontario Railway didn’t end up buying the whole line from Streetsville to Owen Sound. If the deal hadn’t fallen through, I think that there would have been sufficient business to keep the whole thing going.
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You know Alex, maybe you could pick it up at auction.

I mean if you regauge your CLRV, you'd have somewhere to run it............well, once you put the catenary up........
 
alexanderglista said:
It’s still a darn shame that the Midwestern Ontario Railway didn’t end up buying the whole line from Streetsville to Owen Sound. If the deal hadn’t fallen through, I think that there would have been sufficient business to keep the whole thing going.
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I'm not sure there would have been enough enroute revenue. There is a lumber operation in Shelburne that might have been interested, but I don't know if there is any rail-favourable industries left in Owen Sound beyond the P&H grain elevators but the ROW has been significantly disrupted through town.
If Midwestern is the initiative that was backed by the Highland Group, their business model was premised on turning much of north of Shelburne into a gravel pit.
 
lenaitch said:
I'm not sure there would have been enough enroute revenue. There is a lumber operation in Shelburne that might have been interested, but I don't know if there is any rail-favourable industries left in Owen Sound beyond the P&H grain elevators but the ROW has been significantly disrupted through town.
If Midwestern is the initiative that was backed by the Highland Group, their business model was premised on turning much of north of Shelburne into a gravel pit.
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The Highway 26 bridge over the old CP route was filled in a few years ago, with a wide culvert installed to allow trail users to use the ROW uninterrupted.

That’s another significant barrier.
 
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