Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

rbt said:
I don't. Are they targeting 20k pphpd, 25k pphpd, 30k pphpd 35k pphpd? All of those are quite a bit lower than Toronto Rockets with ATO pocket-track turnbacks, and very wide platforms.
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Here are the city expectations:
  • Providing a design capacity for the Ontario Line of at least 34,000 passengers per hour per direction at the peak point (pphpd) and opening day capacity for at least 20,000 pphpd.
  • Per the Initial Business Case demand projection, reducing the projected 2041 demand on Line 1 to no more than 36,000 pphpd of the line.
 
rbt said:
I don't. Are they targeting 20k pphpd, 25k pphpd, 30k pphpd 35k pphpd? All of those are quite a bit lower than Toronto Rockets with ATO pocket-track turnbacks, and very wide platforms.
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afaik 30k is right in the wheelhouse of line 1. Actually achieving that with smaller and very high frequency trains is a whole 'nother deal.

How about getting rid of the western section and investing the freed up funds into doing the eastern portion properly?

Also the city and province must piggy back on any federal COVID stimulus money. This is a once in a generation opportunity to get the relief line done.
 
kali said:
afaik 30k is right in the wheelhouse of line 1. Actually achieving that with smaller and very high frequency trains is a whole 'nother deal.

How about getting rid of the western section and investing the freed up funds into doing the eastern portion properly?

Also the city and province must piggy back on any federal COVID stimulus money. This is a once in a generation opportunity to get the relief line done.
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You're right.

Based on this TTC/city report, the TTC is expecting to meet a capacity of 37,700 pphpd with 36 trains per hour (100 second headway).

The Ontario Line, with smaller stations and smaller trains, is expecting to hit similar numbers with 40 trains per hour (90 second headway).

I"m not sure what kind of capacity each car will have and what the loading standards are. They haven't gotten into any of these details.
 
kali said:
afaik 30k is right in the wheelhouse of line 1. Actually achieving that with smaller and very high frequency trains is a whole 'nother deal.
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Line 1 capacity is restricted by passenger flow (stations) and track layout, not the trains; station dwell time for passenger movements due to disembarking passengers bumping into boarding passengers is a huge time suck. Doubling the width of most stations between Bloor through St. George would increase total line capacity significantly without making any changes to the trains.

Ontario Line stations targeting 36k with smaller trains will need to be careful to design around passenger flow to minimize dwell time; but it's entirely possible to achieve.
 
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Steve Munro has highlighted multiple times that it is doubtful that a frequency of less than 110 seconds or so is even possible on the yonge line due to track geometry and dwell times.

to hit 34,000 PPHD and 90 second frequencies you would need trains that fit 850 people on them. The TTC seems to be assuming about 1,050 people per train based on 37,700pphd and 100 second frequencies. So the trains would be about 20% smaller.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see games like fewer seats on the subway creating larger standing areas as well to fit more people on. Simply doing a single row of seats along each side of the train can produce a train that is narrower but fits more or less just as many people standing as the TRs.. Just a few less people seated.
 
syn said:
You're right.

Based on this TTC/city report, the TTC is expecting to meet a capacity of 37,700 pphpd with 36 trains per hour (100 second headway).

The Ontario Line, with smaller stations and smaller trains, is expecting to hit similar numbers with 40 trains per hour (90 second headway).

I"m not sure what kind of capacity each car will have and what the loading standards are. They haven't gotten into any of these details.
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Indeed, and that's probably why the real throughput of line 1 is about 90% of the TTC's targeted volume. A similar challenge with tricky track geometry may arise with the OL's curves west of the Don.

Someone please jog my memory - did Metrolinx say the TTC would be operating the OL? Because if not, it's also an open question of how well ML can operate a line with much higher frequencies than anything on their current network.
 
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kali said:
Someone please jog my memory - did Metrolinx say the TTC would be operating the OL? Because if not, it's also an open question of how well ML can operate a line with much higher frequencies than anything on their current network.
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No, they haven't commented either way. That said, there's about 0% chance of Metrolinx running it directly, there will either be a contractor, or, well, the TTC as a contractor.

In any case, this is one of the few times I would tend to expect better performance out of Metrolinx/P3 than the TTC. They've got such a long record of lax schedule adherence and opposition to automation that anything like a light metro seems unlikely to be particularly well run under direct TTC management without a large fight and major teething problems. Bear in mind that they've been running the SRT in it's strange crewed mode for 34 years now, and didn't even seem to intend on actually eliminating crews or reducing frequency when they WERE talking about simple refurb.
 
To add to my previous post, COVID also presents us with a window of opportunity to build new lines while transit ridership recovers over the next few years. Gives us some breathing room with respect to crowding on line 1 and at Bloor Yonge. Hopefully we take advantage of it.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Now would really be the perfect time to make changes to the existing network, like the Bloor-Yonge expansion, as the stations aren’t as busy.
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The reconstruction of Y+B is decadal - while it would be nice to see it taking advantage of the dip due to COVID, I am pretty sure the initial work would eat up most of the time before the most disruptive phases. This will probably be even more complicated than the Union subway station 2nd platform project.

AoD
 
1593016999620.png
 
^ Another construction update. Gives a bit of a sense of the location they are looking at.

Bore Hole Drilling - Don Yard: Tracks 1 and 2
To advance the Ontario Line project, Metrolinx will be evaluating the underground conditions of the area where the subway will be built. This will be performed overnight beginning June 1 and will take a brief pause mid month, before continuing into July at this location.

From a greater project lens, excavation of this nature will continue until the end of the summer. As additional locations are scheduled we will do our best to provide advance notice in this space. Work is done by using a small drill rig that drills into the ground, collecting soil and rock samples for further testing.
  • This work must be done to determine the approach for the construction of this important project, and will support the creation of foundation designs and other structural plans
  • Several boreholes will be drilled within the Don Yard; the first holes will be drilled at the two most northerly tracks within the yard
  • Residents and businesses near the work site can expect to hear noise caused by a drill rig, trucks and other construction equipment related to this work
  • Overnight noise and site lighting can be expected. Work crews have been instructed to position lighting away from neighbouring residences.
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For width comparison,

new Montreal REM Metropolis cars:
2.94 m

TTC Toronto Rocket Subway cars:
3.12 m

Approx 18 cm difference.

rem.info

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!
rem.info rem.info
en.wikipedia.org

Toronto Rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I just can't fathom why the insistence in a different smaller rolling stock for the Ontario line.

If the Ontario government want to save money by not going underground and instead build above ground and use overhead bridges similar to some parts of the Montreal REM through less-dense areas of Toronto, sure, I totally agree.

The TR can do automatic train control, and along with platform screen doors, the Ontario Line/Relief line with the TR rolling stock can be a very efficient relief line long into the future for the city.
 
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