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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Steve X said:
LRT doesn't have to be fully grade separated to be good. I think most of us can agree that the Transit City model was a bit lacking in seperation. For the Crosstown, it would be a lot better if the built it on the south side between Brentcliffe and DM. I would also think grade separating the Victoria Park/Pharmacy section and combing it into one underground station would be much better. Other than that, it would be fine. They don't need to grade separate every intersection especially when ridership isn't going to be high through that section. It's not going to be like the Confederation Line which is the main trunk line for the entire OC Transpo network.

For Finch West, grade separation between Weston Rd and Jane would greatly improve traffic circulation. Otherwise it would have been fine. ML did the right thing by grade separating Hwy 27 intersection but cheaped out on Hwy 400.
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Why should 400 and Finch be grade-separated, but not Eglinton/DVP?

At some point you have to ask the question - if we are grade-separating 90% of the line, should we not go for 100% and see the benefits of that - significantly better reliability, fully automatic operation).
Steve X said:
A line on the hydro corridor would work a lot better for Finch East. It would attract both riders from the 939 Finch Express, 953 Steeles East Express plus YRT riders. Destinations aren't along Finch itself. The area has a totally different transit pattern than Finch West.
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I was going to say the exact opposite. At Jane, Keele, Bathurst, Yonge, the line would be only 300m north of Finch (assuming it's on the south side of the corridor) and would still serve Finch quite well. Beyond Seneca, it is exactly 1000m from each of Finch and Steeles - so doesn't really serve either well.
 
Steve X said:
A line on the hydro corridor would work a lot better for Finch East. It would attract both riders from the 939 Finch Express, 953 Steeles East Express plus YRT riders. Destinations aren't along Finch itself. The area has a totally different transit pattern than Finch West.
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If destinations on Finch East are nodal. then it's better served by enhanced N-S services + an extended line 4. If the destinations aren't nodal, then an LRT on Finch makes more sense. The only advantage of using the hydro corridor east of Seneca is cost.
 
The powers-that-be want the what are currently strip-malls along Finch Avenue West to get business from people viewing them out the windows of the light-rail vehicles. There are really no businesses along the hydro corridor, except for some few clusters that have their delivery doors next to the hydro lines.
 
This is the part that people don't get about the Confederation Line in Ottawa. There's a lot of places where it is passing backyards and warehouses. Ottawa's approach was extremely pragmatic. They took an existing BRT corridor. Put rail on it. Rerouted buses to it. They have a light metro that is fed by buses and gets folks across town quickly.

Toronto is constantly trying to do to many things at once. Run on street to replace buses and promote development. But also run fast enough to replace express buses and feed the subway quickly. Can't have both.
 
LRTs on major streets to get people to the SUBWAY/GO/SMARTTRACK Station. Why do we need to chose one or the other. Why can't we have both.
 
BurlOak said:
Why should 400 and Finch be grade-separated, but not Eglinton/DVP?

At some point you have to ask the question - if we are grade-separating 90% of the line, should we not go for 100% and see the benefits of that - significantly better reliability, fully automatic operation).

I was going to say the exact opposite. At Jane, Keele, Bathurst, Yonge, the line would be only 300m north of Finch (assuming it's on the south side of the corridor) and would still serve Finch quite well. Beyond Seneca, it is exactly 1000m from each of Finch and Steeles - so doesn't really serve either well.
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Traffic is a lot worse at Finch/400 than Eglinton/DVP not to mention truck traffic too. On Finch, there is Arrow/Signet and Oakdale/Norfinch intersection right next to the 400. The former hospital which is not a health care centre is located there would benefit from better flowing traffic. This series of light will have an effect on the Finch LRT and would be the slowest part of the line if it's not timed correctly. Eglinton/DVP doesn't have that series of traffic lights nor truck traffic.

It wouldn't be 90% of the line but closer to 70% grade separation. When the line is extended west, it would drop to 40-50% unless Ford actually goes with the Eg West subway. For Finch West, it would only be 15% instead of 5%. If it was 90%, it'll make sense to do 100%.

300m is a lot when a person is carrying groceries while trying to drag their kids along. It's easy for adults to walk on a nice summer day. What about the seniors and the disable? When they don't shovel the snow, they are screwed.

An urban LRT on Finch would serve as a way to improve local travels. It would be aim towards people destined around Finch. A rapid transit LRT on the hydro corridor would serve as a regional trunk line. The hydro corridor would just be part of the trip because the line is located on there. Just like majority of the riders using Line 2 don't start nor end their trip on Bloor/Danforth. If demand are met, both a LRT in the middle of Finch and on the hydro corridor could be built. They serve would totally different purposes.

Since this is the SRT topic. A good example is the SRT. All the stops except STC are built in places that doesn't have pedestrian demands. People would take the 43 Kennedy or 57 Midland bus than to take the SRT and walk 400m. The SRT is there to serve a different purpose. Heck they could still build a LRT on Kennedy for those riders.

11th said:
If destinations on Finch East are nodal. then it's better served by enhanced N-S services + an extended line 4. If the destinations aren't nodal, then an LRT on Finch makes more sense. The only advantage of using the hydro corridor east of Seneca is cost.
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Technically you are right but it might be cheaper to build a complete surface line on the hydro corridor than to continue that tunnel on Sheppard.
 
sixrings said:
LRTs on major streets to get people to the SUBWAY/GO/SMARTTRACK Station. Why do we need to chose one or the other. Why can't we have both.
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I'd agree with this - if we had built out our subway network. Somehow I think 2.5 subway lines is not enough for a vast and growing city like Toronto.
 
As someone who used to live at Midland and finch I'd hate if the lrt didn't run on the actual street. It would be a pain to get up to the hydro corridor and sometimes I just want to travel on finch, not necessarily go to the subway.
 
BurlOak said:
I'd agree with this - if we had built out our subway network. Somehow I think 2.5 subway lines is not enough for a vast and growing city like Toronto.
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That I can agree with. The thing with this though is that every line needs to eventually end somewhere. It isn't that a subway to stc isn't nice. It's just that the DRL is really what's needed and this is just a luxury. When we get the essentials done then I'll be good with talking about luxuries. But this just causes a president where every are of the city can argue that they too deserve subways taking further money from what is again needed, the DRL. Which will mean using transit for political gain again and who knows if anything actually gets built.
 
Steve X said:
Traffic is a lot worse at Finch/400 than Eglinton/DVP not to mention truck traffic too. On Finch, there is Arrow/Signet and Oakdale/Norfinch intersection right next to the 400. The former hospital which is not a health care centre is located there would benefit from better flowing traffic. This series of light will have an effect on the Finch LRT and would be the slowest part of the line if it's not timed correctly. Eglinton/DVP doesn't have that series of traffic lights nor truck traffic.

It wouldn't be 90% of the line but closer to 70% grade separation. When the line is extended west, it would drop to 40-50% unless Ford actually goes with the Eg West subway. For Finch West, it would only be 15% instead of 5%. If it was 90%, it'll make sense to do 100%.

300m is a lot when a person is carrying groceries while trying to drag their kids along. It's easy for adults to walk on a nice summer day. What about the seniors and the disable? When they don't shovel the snow, they are screwed.

An urban LRT on Finch would serve as a way to improve local travels. It would be aim towards people destined around Finch. A rapid transit LRT on the hydro corridor would serve as a regional trunk line. The hydro corridor would just be part of the trip because the line is located on there. Just like majority of the riders using Line 2 don't start nor end their trip on Bloor/Danforth. If demand are met, both a LRT in the middle of Finch and on the hydro corridor could be built. They serve would totally different purposes.

Since this is the SRT topic. A good example is the SRT. All the stops except STC are built in places that doesn't have pedestrian demands. People would take the 43 Kennedy or 57 Midland bus than to take the SRT and walk 400m. The SRT is there to serve a different purpose. Heck they could still build a LRT on Kennedy for those riders.


Technically you are right but it might be cheaper to build a complete surface line on the hydro corridor than to continue that tunnel on Sheppard.
Click to expand...

Id personally like to just see BRT's in the hydro corridors. Like the Finch Busway.

Busways let you use them as express services for both TTC and GO buses, and its less important if they are in the middle of nowhere, as buses can leave the hydro corridor and go to where the people are.

You could still build the Finch LRT on-street. And route buses around it on the busway as express service.
 
robmausser said:
Id personally like to just see BRT's in the hydro corridors. Like the Finch Busway.

Busways let you use them as express services for both TTC and GO buses, and its less important if they are in the middle of nowhere, as buses can leave the hydro corridor and go to where the people are.

You could still build the Finch LRT on-street. And route buses around it on the busway as express service.
Click to expand...

Most transit users, that's users not the non-user, prefer streetcars, light rail, and then heavy rail over buses, in that order.
 
^that's probably not what he meant. I assume Walter meant that in order of preference users most desire heavy rail, light rail and then streetcars over buses. At least that's what I assume because it's worded awkwardly.
 
I'm always amazed on a urban thread how there is seemingly endless brt support in contrast to little let support. But those who want to spend the least expect when it's in their best interest seem to be loud voices.
 
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