Allandale25
Senior Member
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
The reason why you find "a bunch of statistics [...] thrown out" is that I struggle to not read a comparison to VIA's current services out of your initial statement, where you marvel about the upgraded track sections allowing higher speeds between Dresden and Berlin, which you claim to have experienced first-hand and contrast to those you've experienced between Prague and Dresden, while equating the latter with "standard VIA speeds":
I'm very understanding and sympathetic towards the kind of confirmation bias you seem to have experienced during your trip, but just to establish the scheduled reality in 2015, the scheduled travel time between Prague and Dresden was 2:15h, whereas Dresden to Berlin was 2:08h (note that this is 22 minutes more than the 2018 figure of 1:46h I had previously assumed) and both figures are identical for every single EuroCity (EC) train offered on that line:
Source: Fernbahn.de timetable archive
As I said above, I find it very understandable that you subconsciously sought for confirmation of your expectation that a noticeably better level of infrastructure maintenance must lead to a higher maximum and average speed than what you were used to from VIA services in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle, but in reality, the average scheduled speed you experienced between Dresden and Berlin was identical to that of the average Montreal-Ottawa train. Nevertheless, your expectations would have been confirmed by reality had you continued your journey in the EC train to Hamburg (and even more so, if you had done that journey in one of the ICE trains), as that line has already been upgraded to speeds of 230 km/h:
Source: Fernbahn.de timetable archive (for Berlin-Dresden), official VIA Rail timetable (effective 2019-06-02) and official VIA Rail presentation (for HFR)
Therefore, maybe we can agree that you made the right observations (that incremental upgrades of legacy rail lines may allow speeds in excess of what VIA offers today on the Corridor and even of what it promises with HFR), even though you happened to make them on the wrong line?
VIA's new fleet will be capable of speeds of 200 km/h (125 mph) and large chunks of the HFR Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto route (Vaudreuil-De Beaujeu, Moose Creek-Casselman, Casselman West-Hawthrone Jct., Federal Jct.-Fallowfield and Richmond-Smiths Falls) can be easily upgraded to 200 km/h once the remaining level crossings are grade-separated and as it happens, most of these segments overlap with the E-300 alignment recommended by the Ecotrain Study, which ensures that any investments beyond HFR-standards into these segments remain “future-proof”:
Note: The F-200 alignment is shown in red, whereas the E-300 alignment is shown in blue and a more detailed map can be found in Deliverable 9 (Appendix I) of the Ecotrain Study
Source: Ecotrain Study (Deliverable 5, p.64)
[...]
Note: ROW sections eventually shared with HSR are highlighted in green, whereas existing and new ROW sections which will not be eventually shared with HSR are shown in yellow and red, respectively.
Compiled with: distances obtained from historic CN/CP timetables or measured with Google Earth and routings obtained from The Globe And Mail (for HFR) and the Ecotrain Study (Deliverable 5).
Maybe I'm just again misunderstanding the argument you are trying to make, but for someone who believes in incremental upgrades with every step representing tangible benefits at a politically digestible taxpayer cost, you seem to be surprisingly insistent that HFR should have a travel time between Montreal and Toronto of under 4 hours from day one and even if this would mean increasing the total length of the HFR (and thus the length of railway corridors which require upgrades) between Montreal and Toronto by 150 km (or one quarter: 150/580=25.9%), just for saving a few Express trains per day a mere 34 km (or 5.9%) compared to a Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto run, which would represent a time saving of only 17 minutes (again: 5.9%) if we assume that average speed remains the same. And all of that with the dubious benefit of bypassing this nation's capital and 3rd-largest CMA...
If you really don't grasp the difference between 17 (it's 16, by the way: 10 to Ottawa and 6 to Montreal) departures offered between Toronto and either Montreal or Ottawa and a comparable number of departures offered to both cities simultaneously, then this would be at least an explanation for why you struggle so much to fully understand the benefits of HFR...
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Small quibble. Isn't Ottawa the sixth largest CMA?
As usual the rest of your points are spot on.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
It was the fifth-largest CMA in 2016 (down from #4 in 2011), but I was indeed guilty of forgetting about Western Canada (in this case: Vancouver [and I've been there as little as 3 months ago, sorry @ssiguy2
] and Calgary) and to be fair, Edmonton must have overtaken Ottawa-Gatineau within months after the 2016 Census, considering the growth rates observed between 2011 and 2016:Source: Wikipedia
Thank you very much and glad to know they find an interested and satisfied readership...
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kEiThZ
Superstar
littlewill1166
Active Member
It's going to be late and overbudget with Accenture running Presto.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
As long as Transport Canada insists on "intercity rail" services not selling more tickets than seats, I don't see how you could simply tap to start a paid journey, as you would need to select which train you are tapping on for. Also, I don't know what the maximum limits for transactions and balances are for the Presto card, whereas the OPUS card doesn't even seem to have any money functions (you can only save tickets). Maybe you could save your commuter or bizpaks on such a card, but I see very limited use unless the obligation to reserve in advance becomes abolished. That said, maybe you can think of potential uses of these cards for VIA passengers.
By the way, I was deeply impressed by the ease of use (for foreigners and other first-time users) of the transit systems in Chicago and Vancouver, which allow you to use your credit card to tap in and out and then charge you the standard fare for single tickets capped at the price of a day ticket, without having to figure out any tarification and payment systems...
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lrt's friend
Active Member
You are assuming more than the points I was making.
I fully support HFR.
My statement about 3 hrs 59 minutes between Montreal and Toronto should be a goal because it was achievable in the past. . Whether it is achievable now is another question. I was saying this simply because nothing is engraved in stone yet. We are studying HFR and therefore we should have benchmarks for success.
The idea of trains bypassing Ottawa to achieve 3 hrs and 59 min is worth examining with a cost/benefit analysis. It may not be a good idea on day one, or year 20, but it is worth examining. On the VIA schedule, some Montreal-Toronto trains are listed as going through Ottawa with a major time penalty. At least in the long-term, running Montreal-Toronto trains faster will increase ridership. If we achieve 10M ridership, having some Montreal express trains may be a good idea. I realize this may reduce frequency to Ottawa. As someone living in Ottawa, the pros and cons can be examined. I am not worried about an honest assessment. Running Montreal express trains might take us to 12M or 15M ridership. That needs to be assessed as well.
My comment of 18 trains versus 17 trains (which is 16 in reality) was based on another comment on whether such a great increase in service was achievable. I am saying that it should be easily achievable based on the number of trains we are already running out of Toronto.
My comment about Dresden-Berlin is not to compare with HFR, but only to state that incremental track upgrades can eventually achieve higher average speeds. I was not stating that Dresden-Berlin was faster on average than Toronto-Montreal, but certain sections of track were upgraded between Dresden and Berlin, which would have increased average speeds. Similar things can be achieved with HFR at some point down the road. I do hope that the proposed ROW is examined as part of the current study to determine whether ROW improvements may be wise from the get go. Again, as part of a cost/benefit examination. This is the time to do this. We should not simply accept the abandoned ROW between Glen Tay and Havelock. Maybe sections can be straightened. I will leave this to the experts.
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Neutrino
Senior Member
He commented on Munro's blog today so he's still around in the ether somewhere...
littlewill1166
Active Member
Might have gotten locked out of his account, steve and I have been having issues with the website redesign. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/urbantoronto-redesign.26104/page-6
felix123
Active Member
Not sure if I am meant to share this but one of the mods advised me that Steve was permanently banned after repeated warnings. IMHO the blustering personal attacks were getting tiresome but it's always good to hear that someone in the UT community is ok at least.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Not to get too far off-topic, but good riddance. Over a decade in this community and he was the only member that I ever blocked. And I have some very heated debates with lots of different folks in these parts.
He doesn't seem as interested in discourse as he was in being argumentative and "winning" the argument. And he seemed to think spamming every thread with walls of links or copy-and-paste articles (some of which probably violated fair use clauses) was some great contribution that he let him talk down to others or shout down people.
I am sure he'll be back though. Just watch for the next account with a wall of links and constant argumentative tone. He can't help himself.
DSC
Superstar
Member Bio
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We are taking the ViA Canadian to Edmonton next week and are interested in knowing if the recent schedule changes have made it more reliable. Any ideas of a site that reports 'historic' arrival times?
Found it! https://asm.transitdocs.com/
and https://asm.transitdocs.com/map
Found it! https://asm.transitdocs.com/
and https://asm.transitdocs.com/map
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lrt's friend
Active Member
Don't count reliable arrival times. I took the Canadian from Vancouver to Winnipeg at the start of May. We had to stop repeatedly for freight trains along the route. Our arrival time in Winnipeg was around 10 pm. The train actually arrived at 5 am. Be prepared!! Nevertheless, the Canadian is an experience. I loved the journey, meeting people, the views, and the food is excellent.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Given that you already boasted how "much more readable [this thread becomes] without his posts" more than three years ago, I somehow doubt that you are in the best place to comment about his posts since then. Also, just like I told you back then that it violated my sense of fairness to urge other users to block somebody, the same judgement applies to talking about someone who you know that he has no longer the power to reply. You are right, that he - together with quite a few other users - was reliably near the centre of most overheating arguments, but he was just as reliably among those who were sent on increasingly longer vacations from this forum.
I'm not going to make an argument whether the sanctions imposed on him by the administrators were justified, but I did criticize them recently (in a now-deleted, but archived post) on what appeared to me as a rather inconsistent - and selective - enforcement. Nevertheless, I have acknowledged that their response gives me confidence that I will no longer have to be under the impression that certain other serial-offenders - honorary mention to @nfitz - are inexplicably spared from such sanctions.
Therefore, why don't you just draw silently your satisfaction from the fact that you will again be able to see all the posts in this forum, while refraining from sniping on members which are no longer able to bother you? Thank you!
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