The Future of Bombardier

[rbt]

I can only assume that Bombardier Transport division is eventually acquired by Siemens or a leading player elsewhere.

I don't believe that would be approved within the EU for the same reason the Alstom-Siemens merger was blocked.

And with the breakup of the Aerospace division to Mitsubishi, Airbus and Viking, what’s left? The family BRP biz I suppose, but that’s a separate animal.

They still have the Global aircraft line don't they? AFAIK, it was the only profitable aircraft line they had.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't believe that would be approved within the EU for the same reason the Alstom-Siemens merger was blocked.

But Siemens would be acquiring the German_based subsidiary of a Canadian firm, making an EU firm stronger and more successful. Unlike Alstom and Siemens which would take competition out of the EU.

And then there are firms from outside the EU that might want to acquire BBR Transport. Such as earlier this year.... https://www.bombardier.com/en/media...ion-of.bombardiercom.html?filter-bu=transport

They still have the Global aircraft line don't they? AFAIK, it was the only profitable aircraft line they had.

I believe they're keeping the luxury, private planes from Learjet and I suppose Global. But it'll be hard to get further taxpayer funds when you're making planes for nabobs. That business is one recession away from collapse.

 

[kEiThZ]

So much for LRT production. Honestly, this company is f#cked. They should be winning bids and building LRT units for systems across North America. Idiots.

Bombardier to lay off half the 1,100 workers at Thunder Bay rail plant

Union boss fears even more job cuts on horizon as major contracts for TTC streetcars and GO Transit rail cars come to an end

www.thestar.com

Bombardier to lay off half the 1,100 workers at Thunder Bay, Ont. railway plant

Not going to be a popular viewpoint on this forum......

I look at the T-1s and they are all 18-24 years old. They are basically 5-7 years away from starting retirement anyway. Really wouldn't hurt, if the province wants to put up a large 1:1 order to replace the T-1s with Rockets over a decade. Say six trains per year (36 cars). Should be enough to keep the lights on at the plant and help the TTC modernize a bit. And/or maybe an order for a 7th car for every train (including those currently in service) to boost capacity.

 

[drum118]

Not going to be a popular viewpoint on this forum......

I look at the T-1s and they are all 18-24 years old. They are basically 5-7 years away from starting retirement anyway. Really wouldn't hurt, if the province wants to put up a large 1:1 order to replace the T-1s with Rockets over a decade. Say six trains per year (36 cars). Should be enough to keep the lights on at the plant and help the TTC modernize a bit. And/or maybe an order for a 7th car for every train (including those currently in service) to boost capacity.

Why go back to a supplier who still hasn't got things right on a new fleet still after they were built and knowing of the problems while they were being built????

You can't bailout a company that builds things poorly knowing they will get another order because no ones wants to go to another supplier under the Famous Son Rule.

If it was any other type of business, BBD would have been shown the doors years ago and we may see you down the road.

Its one thing to help a company during a cash flow problem when they produce on time as well having a good product with no problems after sales. BBD fails on all account meeting these standards.

Yes TTC needs new subway cars as well streetcar, but how can a city order them when their funding has been cut for years to come?? Then, Ford wants the subway system, but doesn't have the fund to buy it from the city, to run or to expand it for the next 4 year or so, let alone buy new equipment. The Fed's not going to help Ford out of his mess that he got himself into because of hate for Toronto.

 

[rbt]

Why go back to a supplier who still hasn't got things right on a new fleet still after they were built and knowing of the problems while they were being built????

Toronto Rockets have been very reliable.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Toronto Rockets have been very reliable.

But that's yesterday's tech, and heavy rail subway cars are CC&F and Hawker-Siddeley's legacy, not Bombardier's, same as the Q400 (Dash-8) is DeHavilland's and the CRJ is Canadair's. This Quebec company essentially acquired and cobbled together a bunch of plants and products, slapped on some new badges and contemporary tech and rode them to today.

The stuff they actually invented or initiated, like the Flexity streetcars (and the C-Series jets) have been a disaster for the company, ruining their reputation in North America right as the US/Canada market interest and demand in LRTs has jumped.

 

[smallspy]

But that's yesterday's tech, and heavy rail subway cars are CC&F and Hawker-Siddeley's legacy, not Bombardier's, same as the Q400 (Dash-8) is DeHavilland's and the CRJ is Canadair's. This Quebec company essentially acquired and cobbled together a bunch of plants and products, slapped on some new badges and contemporary tech and rode them to today.

To equate the TRs to the old Hawker-Siddeley-built subway cars would be to call the original Dash-8 (not the Q-series) the same as the C-series - because they're both planes that were built by Bombardier. The level of tech progression between the two however, is several generations apart.

About the only thing that could be traced back to the old subway car design on or in the TRs is the trucks. Everything else - control systems, doors, traction motors, HVAC, even the body - has been designed from scratch by Bombardier in the past 20 years.

The stuff they actually invented or initiated, like the Flexity streetcars (and the C-Series jets) have been a disaster for the company, ruining their reputation in North America right as the US/Canada market interest and demand in LRTs has jumped.

The Flexity streetcars elsewhere in the world have been a resounding success. The world is greater than just the GTA or North America.

Dan

 

[jje1000]

Interesting- it's most likely entirely political posturing, but it tilts the board a bit as to what rolling stock could be used for the Ontario Line if push comes to shove- and we all know how heavily transit policy-making is politicized in Ontario, going back to even the Toronto Rockets:

Federal Liberals, Ontario Tories point fingers over looming Bombardier layoffs
BY THE CANADIAN PRESS
Posted Jul 10, 2019

Federal Labour Minister Patty Hajdu said Wednesday in a statement that Ontario Premier Doug Ford failed to deliver on a promised contract for the facility in her hometown that could have saved jobs.

“While our federal government and the hardworking people in my community worked to save jobs at the Bombardier plant, Doug Ford sat on his hands and made empty promises. His government let these critical investments lapse.”

Ontario Premier Doug Ford shot back that his government has put forward a $28.5-billion Toronto-area transit plan that could help keep the facility afloat, but he hasn’t “heard hide nor hair” about funding from Ottawa.

“They’ve been sitting on their hands,” Ford told reporters at a premiers’ meeting in Saskatoon.

In a statement Tuesday, Ontario Transportation Minister Caroline Mulroney urged the company to work with her government to come to an agreement to save jobs at the plant.

The layoffs mark another point in the contentious relationship between the federal Liberals and the Ontario Tories, particularly over the billions in spending on infrastructure.

Multiple members of Ford’s government also served in the previous federal Conservative government, giving them an understanding of how federal cash flows to provinces, territories and cities.

Federal insiders said they expected some friction, but a source at one of the first closed-door meetings between the two governments said the Ontario side made it clear they would not be able provide extra help to more quickly move federal infrastructure money.

Federal Liberals, Ontario Tories point fingers over looming Bombardier layoffs

The federal Liberals and Ontario Tories are blaming each other for the impending loss of 550 jobs at Bombardier’s railway car plant in Thunder Bay, Ont. Federal Labour Minister Patty Hajdu said Wednesday in a statement that Ontario Premier Doug Ford failed to deliver on a promised contract for...

www.680news.com

More posturing:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1148931956803063808

https://twitter.com/x/status/1149333238109868032

"Clearly there has to be a plan. We know that the TTC needs 60 LRVs, we know that with the $28.5 billion-infrastructure announcement that they need all kinds of subways. We need the rockets, so there's all kinds of work to save this plant but you've got to get everybody in a room and a plan to say 'here's what it looks like,'" he said.

"When the work is inevitably awarded, which it will be, you are not going to have skilled workers in order to assemble the trains. So that's why there needs to be a plan and we need to know it quickly," he said.

 

[kEiThZ]

@Admiral Beez

C-Series is actually a fantastic airplane. One of the smoothest launches in recent aviation history (last two decades). Most advanced cockpit in civil aviation. And most advanced and comfortable narrow body in the sky. They get great reviews from passengers and every airline which has taken delivery has upped their orders. It's so good, Airbus will eventually parts of their own lineup with the CSeries.

What they couldn't do was undercut Airbus and Boeing. And really what they were incompetent on was their insistence on developing the Global 7500. That program cost a billion in development. Effectively eating a lot of the C-Series runway. Their management got them into that pickle.

 

[Admiral Beez]

@kEiThZ interesting info. I do sometimes wish Bombardier would make Torontonians and Ontarians proud. I remember as a kid in the 1970s seeing the new streetcars and thinking, wow, this high tech beast is made right here in Ontario. Nowadays we’re more likely to think, Jesus can you just deliver something on time with quality?

 

[kEiThZ]

@kEiThZ interesting info. I do sometimes wish Bombardier would make Torontonians and Ontarians proud. I remember as a kid in the 1970s seeing the new streetcars and thinking, wow, this high tech beast is made right here in Ontario. Nowadays we’re more likely to think, Jesus can you just deliver something on time with quality?

Air Canada is getting 45 A220/CSeries and has 30 more options. Delivery starts this December. In about 3 years, the odds of flying one on Air Canada will be high. And you'll get exactly how great these airplanes are and why Boeing tried to kill the program once you connect to one from your 737 MAX flight.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Air Canada is getting 45 A220/CSeries and has 30 more options. Delivery starts this December. In about 3 years, the odds of flying one on Air Canada will be high. And you'll get exactly how great these airplanes are and why Boeing tried to kill the program once you connect to one from your 737 MAX flight.

That is good, but too bad the program had to be sold off at a discount after all the taxpayer support.

On the above, I was thinking more of the Ontario-made products.

 

[dowlingm]

If Ontario wanted a quick-ish way to prop up Thunder Bay, cascading a few six-packs and F59s to an Ottawa commuter service (from the southwest, operated by VIA, add stops in Richmond and Nepean) would be one possible approach.

 

[drum118]

National Post View: It’s not Doug Ford's duty to rescue Bombardier from its ineptitude

 

[kEiThZ]

If Ontario wanted a quick-ish way to prop up Thunder Bay, cascading a few six-packs and F59s to an Ottawa commuter service (from the southwest, operated by VIA, add stops in Richmond and Nepean) would be one possible approach.

Who is going to pay to run that?