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TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

Towered said:
Would you mind sharing on which streets you proposed an additional 150 km of streetcar lines? I'm dying to know!
Click to expand...
Eglinton, Finch, Steeles, Sheppard from end to end with Steeles going to Hurontario. Dufferin, Keele, Jane, Don Mills, SRT to Malvern as per 1970's proposed route, Waterfront as per 2004 proposed routes. 512 west to Kipling and would end up in Stoney Creek down the road, The Queensway to Sherway and going to Hurontario down the road, Kipling, Islington, and the list goes on. All these routes were before Transit City surface as well the Crosstown Line. Eglinton would go west to Sq One at a future date. Looked at Lawrence Ave W and St Clair as how they could service the airport. Having a line on Bathurst would be nice, but a lot of issues for a line on it. Same for Kingston Rd. Basely, routes over 25,000 riders a day.
 
drum118 said:
Eglinton, Finch, Steeles, Sheppard from end to end with Steeles going to Hurontario. Dufferin, Keele, Jane, Don Mills, SRT to Malvern as per 1970's proposed route, Waterfront as per 2004 proposed routes. 512 west to Kipling and would end up in Stoney Creek down the road, The Queensway to Sherway and going to Hurontario down the road, Kipling, Islington, and the list goes on. All these routes were before Transit City surface as well the Crosstown Line. Eglinton would go west to Sq One at a future date. Looked at Lawrence Ave W and St Clair as how they could service the airport. Having a line on Bathurst would be nice, but a lot of issues for a line on it. Same for Kingston Rd. Basely, routes over 25,000 riders a day.
Click to expand...

Mostly frowned upon and discouraged by the automobile gods disciples in the suburbs.
 
drum118 said:
Eglinton, Finch, Steeles, Sheppard from end to end with Steeles going to Hurontario. Dufferin, Keele, Jane, Don Mills, SRT to Malvern as per 1970's proposed route, Waterfront as per 2004 proposed routes. 512 west to Kipling and would end up in Stoney Creek down the road, The Queensway to Sherway and going to Hurontario down the road, Kipling, Islington, and the list goes on. All these routes were before Transit City surface as well the Crosstown Line. Eglinton would go west to Sq One at a future date. Looked at Lawrence Ave W and St Clair as how they could service the airport. Having a line on Bathurst would be nice, but a lot of issues for a line on it. Same for Kingston Rd. Basely, routes over 25,000 riders a day.
Click to expand...

Fascinating!

Eglinton - since we're getting the Crosstown, streetcar is now moot.
Finch - same as Eglinton due to the LRT, except I would extend the LRT in a phase 2 to Yonge, and then phase 3 to Morningside or Meadowvale.
Sheppard - would you build a streetcar going west from Yonge-Sheppard station, or extend the subway? What about going east from Don Mills station? To Port Union and down to Lawrence East?
Steeles - I think Metrolinx is planning a BRT for Steeles, but I'd like to see LRT. You'd have it go all the way to Hurontario? That's very bold as it would go through some stretches of very low density. How far east would you build it?
Dufferin - this street needs a serious transit upgrade. Not sure a streetcar in mixed traffic is the best idea though. Probably an LRT with a significant underground portion. Lakeshore to Steeles?
Keele - it should definitely have a streetcar. I always say the 506 should go up Parkside to Keele station instead of ending/looping the line early at High Park. If you were to build a streetcar north of the station however, which route would you follow once you hit St. Clair and there's that awkward jog where Keele suddenly becomes Weston?
Jane - Mixed traffic streetcar north of Bloor to Eglinton, or tunneled LRT? Past Eglinton it can stay on the surface in its own ROW all the way to Steeles or would you take it into downtown Vaughan?
Don Mills - as the DRL/Ontario Line will follow this alignment, no streetcar necessary here.
SRT - should have been the LRT instead of the silly subway. No proposed connection to Malvern is nuts.
Waterfront - no brainer for LRT. Can't believe it's still not decided. Pathetic from the city.
512 extension to Kipling - another obvious upgrade the city is sitting on for some weird reason. Would you run the streetcar along Dundas in mixed traffic? There are sections in Etobicoke that are too narrow for a ROW. And what do you mean by Stoney Creek?
Queensway - an LRT ROW from Humber Loop to Sherway is another no brainer. Development in this corridor is gaining steam, and the road is wide enough. It would be easy and cheap. I like your idea of extending to Hurontario eventually, even though it would go through some low density areas along the way.
Kipling - I keep saying it: there's no north-south rapid transit corridor proposed in the west end/Etobicoke, and Kipling would be the perfect choice. Lakeshore to Steeles.
Islington - Busy bus route, but wouldn't a streetcar or LRT here be too close to Kipling? It also doesn't have as many trip generators as Kipling. Still though, there's enough road width for a ROW in most places. How far north would you take it? I love the idea of being able to take a streetcar/LRT to Kleinberg!
Lawrence - Another obvious choice. ROW from Yonge to Royal York, then jog up to Dixon and go all the way to the airport. What about Lawrence East? From Don Mills eastward? There's that pesky ravine in the way...
Bathurst - what are the problems you mention?

Some others of my own:

Ellesmere/York Mills/Wilson/Albion - one long LRT across the city from Scarborough Centre to Rexdale.
Brown's Line/West Mall or East Mall/427/27 - a north-south spine at the western edge of the city. The routing would be quite tricky however - I'm not sure where exactly is the best place to run it.
Weston - a branch of the Keele streetcar?
Dupont/Davenport/Bay - restoration. Junction to Waterfront.
Avenue/Oriole Parkway - a wide, busy arterial that always seems to be overlooked in transit planning. St. George station to 401.
Ossington/Oakwood/Marlee - Queen to Lawrence. Could also restore the Rogers Rd branch.
Jameson/Lansdowne/Caledonia - Parkdale to Yorkdale.
Wellesley/Harbord - Parliament to Ossington.
Front/Eastern - Liberty Village to Ashbridges Bay.
Adelaide - Bathurst to Parliament.
Richmond - Bathurst to Parliament.
Church - Bloor to Waterfront.
Jarvis/Mount Pleasant - Eglinton to Waterfront.
Sherbourne - Bloor to Waterfront.
Parliament - Bloor to Waterfront.
Gerrard - extension from Parliament to University.
Dundas East - extension from Broadview to Coxwell.
Bayview/River - York U Glendon campus to Front.
Broadview - extension south from Queen to Portlands. Extension north to O'Connor then east along St. Clair East to Kingston. Could have branches along Cosburn or Mortimer to Coxwell or Woodbine.
Commissioners - across the Portlands.
Leslie - south into Portlands.
Queens Quay/Lakeshore/Woodbine - Union to Woodbine station.
Coxwell - O'Connor to Beaches.
Main - extension south from Gerrard to Kingston.
Victoria Park - Steeles to Beaches.
Kingston - LRT ROW extension from Victoria Park loop eastward to Meadowvale or all the way to Durham region.
Warden - Steeles to Kingston.
Birchmount - Steeles to Kingston.
Kennedy - Steeles to Kingston.
Midland - Steeles to Kingston.
Brimley - Steeles to Bluffs.
Markham - Steeles to Kingston.
Morningside - Malvern to Kingston.
Meadowvale - Zoo to Kingston.
 
Towered said:
Fascinating!

Eglinton - since we're getting the Crosstown, streetcar is now moot.
Finch - same as Eglinton due to the LRT, except I would extend the LRT in a phase 2 to Yonge, and then phase 3 to Morningside or Meadowvale.
Sheppard - would you build a streetcar going west from Yonge-Sheppard station, or extend the subway? What about going east from Don Mills station? To Port Union and down to Lawrence East?
Steeles - I think Metrolinx is planning a BRT for Steeles, but I'd like to see LRT. You'd have it go all the way to Hurontario? That's very bold as it would go through some stretches of very low density. How far east would you build it?
Dufferin - this street needs a serious transit upgrade. Not sure a streetcar in mixed traffic is the best idea though. Probably an LRT with a significant underground portion. Lakeshore to Steeles?
Keele - it should definitely have a streetcar. I always say the 506 should go up Parkside to Keele station instead of ending/looping the line early at High Park. If you were to build a streetcar north of the station however, which route would you follow once you hit St. Clair and there's that awkward jog where Keele suddenly becomes Weston?
Jane - Mixed traffic streetcar north of Bloor to Eglinton, or tunneled LRT? Past Eglinton it can stay on the surface in its own ROW all the way to Steeles or would you take it into downtown Vaughan?
Don Mills - as the DRL/Ontario Line will follow this alignment, no streetcar necessary here.
SRT - should have been the LRT instead of the silly subway. No proposed connection to Malvern is nuts.
Waterfront - no brainer for LRT. Can't believe it's still not decided. Pathetic from the city.
512 extension to Kipling - another obvious upgrade the city is sitting on for some weird reason. Would you run the streetcar along Dundas in mixed traffic? There are sections in Etobicoke that are too narrow for a ROW. And what do you mean by Stoney Creek?
Queensway - an LRT ROW from Humber Loop to Sherway is another no brainer. Development in this corridor is gaining steam, and the road is wide enough. It would be easy and cheap. I like your idea of extending to Hurontario eventually, even though it would go through some low density areas along the way.
Kipling - I keep saying it: there's no north-south rapid transit corridor proposed in the west end/Etobicoke, and Kipling would be the perfect choice. Lakeshore to Steeles.
Islington - Busy bus route, but wouldn't a streetcar or LRT here be too close to Kipling? It also doesn't have as many trip generators as Kipling. Still though, there's enough road width for a ROW in most places. How far north would you take it? I love the idea of being able to take a streetcar/LRT to Kleinberg!
Lawrence - Another obvious choice. ROW from Yonge to Royal York, then jog up to Dixon and go all the way to the airport. What about Lawrence East? From Don Mills eastward? There's that pesky ravine in the way...
Bathurst - what are the problems you mention?

Some others of my own:

Ellesmere/York Mills/Wilson/Albion - one long LRT across the city from Scarborough Centre to Rexdale.
Brown's Line/West Mall or East Mall/427/27 - a north-south spine at the western edge of the city. The routing would be quite tricky however - I'm not sure where exactly is the best place to run it.
Weston - a branch of the Keele streetcar?
Dupont/Davenport/Bay - restoration. Junction to Waterfront.
Avenue/Oriole Parkway - a wide, busy arterial that always seems to be overlooked in transit planning. St. George station to 401.
Ossington/Oakwood/Marlee - Queen to Lawrence. Could also restore the Rogers Rd branch.
Jameson/Lansdowne/Caledonia - Parkdale to Yorkdale.
Wellesley/Harbord - Parliament to Ossington.
Front/Eastern - Liberty Village to Ashbridges Bay.
Adelaide - Bathurst to Parliament.
Richmond - Bathurst to Parliament.
Church - Bloor to Waterfront.
Jarvis/Mount Pleasant - Eglinton to Waterfront.
Sherbourne - Bloor to Waterfront.
Parliament - Bloor to Waterfront.
Gerrard - extension from Parliament to University.
Dundas East - extension from Broadview to Coxwell.
Bayview/River - York U Glendon campus to Front.
Broadview - extension south from Queen to Portlands. Extension north to O'Connor then east along St. Clair East to Kingston. Could have branches along Cosburn or Mortimer to Coxwell or Woodbine.
Commissioners - across the Portlands.
Leslie - south into Portlands.
Queens Quay/Lakeshore/Woodbine - Union to Woodbine station.
Coxwell - O'Connor to Beaches.
Main - extension south from Gerrard to Kingston.
Victoria Park - Steeles to Beaches.
Kingston - LRT ROW extension from Victoria Park loop eastward to Meadowvale or all the way to Durham region.
Warden - Steeles to Kingston.
Birchmount - Steeles to Kingston.
Kennedy - Steeles to Kingston.
Midland - Steeles to Kingston.
Brimley - Steeles to Bluffs.
Markham - Steeles to Kingston.
Morningside - Malvern to Kingston.
Meadowvale - Zoo to Kingston.
Click to expand...

i feel like alot of these streets would be better served by bus lanes and signal priority instead
 
Towered said:
Fascinating!

Eglinton - since we're getting the Crosstown, streetcar is now moot.
Finch - same as Eglinton due to the LRT, except I would extend the LRT in a phase 2 to Yonge, and then phase 3 to Morningside or Meadowvale.
Sheppard - would you build a streetcar going west from Yonge-Sheppard station, or extend the subway? What about going east from Don Mills station? To Port Union and down to Lawrence East?
Steeles - I think Metrolinx is planning a BRT for Steeles, but I'd like to see LRT. You'd have it go all the way to Hurontario? That's very bold as it would go through some stretches of very low density. How far east would you build it?
Dufferin - this street needs a serious transit upgrade. Not sure a streetcar in mixed traffic is the best idea though. Probably an LRT with a significant underground portion. Lakeshore to Steeles?
Keele - it should definitely have a streetcar. I always say the 506 should go up Parkside to Keele station instead of ending/looping the line early at High Park. If you were to build a streetcar north of the station however, which route would you follow once you hit St. Clair and there's that awkward jog where Keele suddenly becomes Weston?
Jane - Mixed traffic streetcar north of Bloor to Eglinton, or tunneled LRT? Past Eglinton it can stay on the surface in its own ROW all the way to Steeles or would you take it into downtown Vaughan?
Don Mills - as the DRL/Ontario Line will follow this alignment, no streetcar necessary here.
SRT - should have been the LRT instead of the silly subway. No proposed connection to Malvern is nuts.
Waterfront - no brainer for LRT. Can't believe it's still not decided. Pathetic from the city.
512 extension to Kipling - another obvious upgrade the city is sitting on for some weird reason. Would you run the streetcar along Dundas in mixed traffic? There are sections in Etobicoke that are too narrow for a ROW. And what do you mean by Stoney Creek?
Queensway - an LRT ROW from Humber Loop to Sherway is another no brainer. Development in this corridor is gaining steam, and the road is wide enough. It would be easy and cheap. I like your idea of extending to Hurontario eventually, even though it would go through some low density areas along the way.
Kipling - I keep saying it: there's no north-south rapid transit corridor proposed in the west end/Etobicoke, and Kipling would be the perfect choice. Lakeshore to Steeles.
Islington - Busy bus route, but wouldn't a streetcar or LRT here be too close to Kipling? It also doesn't have as many trip generators as Kipling. Still though, there's enough road width for a ROW in most places. How far north would you take it? I love the idea of being able to take a streetcar/LRT to Kleinberg!
Lawrence - Another obvious choice. ROW from Yonge to Royal York, then jog up to Dixon and go all the way to the airport. What about Lawrence East? From Don Mills eastward? There's that pesky ravine in the way...
Bathurst - what are the problems you mention?

Some others of my own:

Ellesmere/York Mills/Wilson/Albion - one long LRT across the city from Scarborough Centre to Rexdale.
Brown's Line/West Mall or East Mall/427/27 - a north-south spine at the western edge of the city. The routing would be quite tricky however - I'm not sure where exactly is the best place to run it.
Weston - a branch of the Keele streetcar?
Dupont/Davenport/Bay - restoration. Junction to Waterfront.
Avenue/Oriole Parkway - a wide, busy arterial that always seems to be overlooked in transit planning. St. George station to 401.
Ossington/Oakwood/Marlee - Queen to Lawrence. Could also restore the Rogers Rd branch.
Jameson/Lansdowne/Caledonia - Parkdale to Yorkdale.
Wellesley/Harbord - Parliament to Ossington.
Front/Eastern - Liberty Village to Ashbridges Bay.
Adelaide - Bathurst to Parliament.
Richmond - Bathurst to Parliament.
Church - Bloor to Waterfront.
Jarvis/Mount Pleasant - Eglinton to Waterfront.
Sherbourne - Bloor to Waterfront.
Parliament - Bloor to Waterfront.
Gerrard - extension from Parliament to University.
Dundas East - extension from Broadview to Coxwell.
Bayview/River - York U Glendon campus to Front.
Broadview - extension south from Queen to Portlands. Extension north to O'Connor then east along St. Clair East to Kingston. Could have branches along Cosburn or Mortimer to Coxwell or Woodbine.
Commissioners - across the Portlands.
Leslie - south into Portlands.
Queens Quay/Lakeshore/Woodbine - Union to Woodbine station.
Coxwell - O'Connor to Beaches.
Main - extension south from Gerrard to Kingston.
Victoria Park - Steeles to Beaches.
Kingston - LRT ROW extension from Victoria Park loop eastward to Meadowvale or all the way to Durham region.
Warden - Steeles to Kingston.
Birchmount - Steeles to Kingston.
Kennedy - Steeles to Kingston.
Midland - Steeles to Kingston.
Brimley - Steeles to Bluffs.
Markham - Steeles to Kingston.
Morningside - Malvern to Kingston.
Meadowvale - Zoo to Kingston.
Click to expand...
We are a streetcar city. The fact that we're not further embracing it is honestly disheartening, especially since so many of our routes are overcrowded. However, I'd focus on old Toronto and the existing streetcar suburbs of the city, we have a bunch of unused lines that aren't being used for jack-sh!t right now and could seriously improve commutes in a lot of locations.
Suburban streets are a bit different. In terms of all the scarborough roads you suggested, I think the only one that might have some merit is Victoria Park or Markham road, the rest are pretty close to the scarborough subway extension (if it ever gets built...)

Sheppard should stay bus-only east of Don Mills until the relief line is built north, the west extension has merit as a subway, but we should determine what to do with the east side when the relief line is built north. Who knows, they might finally change the zoning restrictions and the area may finally become attractive to developers. Steeles should be light rail.

The problem with bathurst is the hill between Bloor and St Clair, it prevents full streetcars from travelling up it.
adrianaliu said:
i feel like alot of these streets would be better served by bus lanes and signal priority instead
Click to expand...
Thing is, many of these streets already have bus lanes, and signal priority in this city is never going to happen properly.
 
Streety McCarface said:
I just remember someone telling me it. What is the actual reason then?
Click to expand...
It's simply a service choice. They could run 511 into St. Clair West (or St. Clair) station if they desired. And 512 cars are normally in service going up that hill - there's nothing precluding one being crush-loaded even today ... other than the lack of demand in the wee hours in the morning when most of the cars do that run.

There were reportedly issues with an ALRV being able to push an ALRV up that hill ... but that's also true of other points in the city too. However the specs on the Flexity were to make sure that it could handle that grade.
 
Last edited:
nfitz said:
There were reportedly issues with an ALRV being able to push an ALRV up that hill ... but that's also true of other points in the city too. However the specs on the Flexity were to make sure that it could handle hat grade.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the reason why ALRVs were not allowed up on St. Clair. In ideal conditions, a disabled ALRV could be pushed or pulled up the hill by another unit - but how often are conditions ideal? Snow, rain, leaves, even humidity can all be factors that would prevent an ALRV from towing another unit up the hill. And thus it was felt that it was just safer to prevent it from ever being a problem by banning them outright.

The CLRVs and Flexities are designed to be able to haul a like unit up the hill, and can and have done so.

As for why was the Bathurst car never extended up to St. Clair West Station - most people from north of St. Clair are travelling to points south of St. Clair. It didn't make sense to force a transfer upon them.

Dan
 
DSC said:
When people post here that 'someone told me" about something I start to question their credibility on that and other subjects unless the "someone" is 'identified' as a person who might actually have some real knowledge.
Click to expand...
Why believe anyone on the transit forums...I assumed the person (whom I do not remember because it was likely on the CPTDB a few years ago) had explicit knowledge of the subject. It was my fault for not questioning it at the time but the reason seemed justified and logical, so I accepted it.
 
smallspy said:
That is exactly the reason why ALRVs were not allowed up on St. Clair. In ideal conditions, a disabled ALRV could be pushed or pulled up the hill by another unit - but how often are conditions ideal? Snow, rain, leaves, even humidity can all be factors that would prevent an ALRV from towing another unit up the hill. And thus it was felt that it was just safer to prevent it from ever being a problem by banning them outright.

The CLRVs and Flexities are designed to be able to haul a like unit up the hill, and can and have done so.

As for why was the Bathurst car never extended up to St. Clair West Station - most people from north of St. Clair are travelling to points south of St. Clair. It didn't make sense to force a transfer upon them.

Dan
Click to expand...
This makes complete sense, but why would it inhibit the city from expanding Light Rail service on Bathurst? Is it too close to the existing subway lines to be considered viable, is ridership too low to justify an expansion (combined, the 7 and 511 see something like 45K PPD, but the total route is like 30 km long), or is it something else?
 
Ridership north of Bloor isn't above the level that the bus can serve, and if you convert it to streetcar you're either forcing a transfer elsewhere or creating a streetcar into low-density, lower-use areas. The subway was the logical cutoff point because of the existing transfer volume.

Personally, I thought they should have protected for a streetcar loop at Eglinton. There was ample opportunity with all the redevelopment at that intersection, and down the road if they see significant transfer volume at Eglinton they could extend the track from St Clair to Eglinton and force the transfer there. And if not, they could just leave the status quo.
 
Streety McCarface said:
This makes complete sense, but why would it inhibit the city from expanding Light Rail service on Bathurst? Is it too close to the existing subway lines to be considered viable, is ridership too low to justify an expansion (combined, the 7 and 511 see something like 45K PPD, but the total route is like 30 km long), or is it something else?
Click to expand...

I see a combination of 3 factors that work against the idea of extending the streetcar up Bathurst:

1) Bathurst is narrow south of Wilson; a streetcar would have to run in mixed traffic. A long continuous streetcar route would be less reliable than the 511.

Actually, 511 isn't bad despite running in mixed traffic. The relatively short length, about 6 km each way, probably helps. But if the line gets longer, a delay in any spot will affect the whole line.

2) If a long line is not desired because of the reliability concerns, then the subway station at Bloor is a good location to terminate both the southern and the northern service.

3) Although Bathurst has decent ridership, it is well below other busiest bus corridors. Currently, Bathurst #7 is served with antics running on something 9 min headways. If more capacity is desired, it is far cheaper and less disruptive to improve the frequency to every 6 min or every 5 min.

There is a possibility of building actual LRT in the north section of Bathurst (from Wilson to Steeles and then to the Promenade Mall). It could have dedicated lanes for most of the length, possibly combined with a short underground section under 1.5 km of Wilson to feed into the Wilson subway station. Not a top priority, but something to keep in mind.
 
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