Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[JSF-1]

I wonder if this will be a turning point for the idea of LRT in Scarborough. With the fact that we won't have the neccissary equipment to even build or operate the SSE, and the fact the ICTS trains won't last much longer; it seems the idea of LRT (an expansion of the Crosstown?) or at the very least updating the SRT to the newer Vancouver standard (the 2006 plan) would be much more appealing. The only thing at this point that could save the SSE is if the Province assumes the cost of ATC conversion and the purchase of new vehicles.

 

[Rainforest]

I wonder if this will be a turning point for the idea of LRT in Scarborough. With the fact that we won't have the neccissary equipment to even build or operate the SSE, and the fact the ICTS trains won't last much longer; it seems the idea of LRT (an expansion of the Crosstown?) or at the very least updating the SRT to the newer Vancouver standard (the 2006 plan) would be much more appealing. The only thing at this point that could save the SSE is if the Province assumes the cost of ATC conversion and the purchase of new vehicles.

As nfitz noted a few posts above, the ATC conversion is not a hard prerequisite for SSE.

The city decided it does not want to spend money on the old control system first, and then replace it with the ATC compatible system shortly after. That kind of makes sense, assuming that the ATC conversion happens at the right time. But if it doesn't, and the city doesn't want to run shuttle buses for years, then the extension can be built with the old signal system.

LRT is technically possible, and always was. But it is hard to see why it will be more appealing now than it was in 2012/2013.

 

[JSF-1]

As nfitz noted a few posts above, the ATC conversion is not a hard prerequisite for SSE.

The city decided it does not want to spend money on the old control system first, and then replace it with the ATC compatible system shortly after. That kind of makes sense, assuming that the ATC conversion happens at the right time. But if it doesn't, and the city doesn't want to run shuttle buses for years, then the extension can be built with the old signal system.

LRT is technically possible, and always was. But it is hard to see why it will be more appealing now than it was in 2012/2013.

ATC is not a requirment no, but why bother building the SSE with block signals, only to then convert them to ATC a couple of years later? That's just a colossal waste of time and money. As for LRT not being appealing, at this point the SSE is now a direct determent to the DRL as pointed out by the tweet. If we can't get the T1's out of Greenwood, then we can't operate the DRL. The DRL hinges on Line 2 being converted to ATC and a new yard being constructed in the west end. If the City is serious about building the DRL it may be necessary to jettison the SSE entirely in favor of a plan that doesn't impact the DRL. That or the Province pony's up the cash for new trains, the ATC conversion, and a new Subway Yard for Line 2.

 

[Rainforest]

ATC is not a requirment no, but why bother building the SSE with block signals, only to then convert them to ATC a couple of years later? That's just a colossal waste of time and money.

Sure if the conversion to ATC happens just a couple of years later, then there is no point building with block signals. On the other hand, if the conversion happens much later than in 2 years ..

As for LRT not being appealing, at this point the SSE is now a direct determent to the DRL as pointed out by the tweet. If we can't get the T1's out of Greenwood, then we can't operate the DRL. The DRL hinges on Line 2 being converted to ATC and a new yard being constructed in the west end. If the City is serious about building the DRL it may be necessary to jettison the SSE entirely in favor of a plan that doesn't impact the DRL. That or the Province pony's up the cash for new trains, the ATC conversion, and a new Subway Yard for Line 2.

Not building SSE doesn't eliminate the need to build the new yard at Kipling. If it is difficult with SSE, it will be difficult without SSE too.

I suppose some money can be saved by switching to LRT, but not enough to fund the Kipling yard. Remember that the LRT will need a yard on its own.

 

[OneCity]

Thoughts @OneCity ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1107734124612198401

This is not a new issue. Its now a bartering chip now for the Province to step up if its going to take over the subway and deliver on time. Keep in mind we are in the middle of a upload "negotiation". These necessary backlogged items should go up to Province with the agreement for control of capital expansion and this seems like a smart move by the City here as there is very little leverage otherwise.

I wonder if this will be a turning point for the idea of LRT in Scarborough. With the fact that we won't have the neccissary equipment to even build or operate the SSE, and the fact the ICTS trains won't last much longer; it seems the idea of LRT (an expansion of the Crosstown?) or at the very least updating the SRT to the newer Vancouver standard (the 2006 plan) would be much more appealing. The only thing at this point that could save the SSE is if the Province assumes the cost of ATC conversion and the purchase of new vehicles.

Last part of your post is spot on .

Those who hold power across all levels of government would never even consider changing plans to LRT or any other technology for various political, private and public interest reasons at this stage. Even those close to power who are not all that warm on the issue wouldn't touch it. The usual vocal subway opposition (mainly activist NDP/union special interest groups) will continue to do what they do to be anti-Ford and marketers of the LRT technology. So I fully understand why LRT will seem still relevant to some while upload details are hashed out and likely continue right up until the line is built. Keep in mind most NDP candidates within Scarborough have been either fully supportive of the subway or completely silent. The majority of those that vocally oppose the subway are now completely irrelevant in the process so if give it a shade above 0% chance.

 

[ssiguy2]

Because they didn't upgrade the Union rail corridor to support the train frequency needed for such operation.

Otherwise, it would be a very good idea.

A double track with one in each direction should be able to carry a train every 2 minutes in each direction. For a RER system line carrying the York, STC, and Oshawa trains that allows for frequency of every 6 minutes on the line. Can't they build a 3rd or hopefully 4th rail for GO commuter trains and VIA?

 

[ssiguy2]

I just went thru the entire Google satellite between Union and Scar GO station and it's 3 tracks already and looks to have more than enough room to make it 4 tracks between the 2 stations. The small single track between Scar & Kenny has more than enough room for an additional track. This entire section is completely grade separated and will have relatively few stations so a train every 2 minutes is very doable as is every 90 seconds with ATC.

With a new bridge connecting the mainline to STC and new STC station, this could be a complete subway route with very little effort or money. Ford could say he only builds subways and people in Scar would have far superior service to both Kennedy and Union which neither a subway extension, LRT conversion, or ART upgrade could offer.

 

[Allandale25]

This is not a new issue. Its now a bartering chip now for the Province to step up if its going to take over the subway and deliver on time. Keep in mind we are in the middle of a upload "negotiation". These necessary backlogged items should go up to Province with the agreement for control of capital expansion and this seems like a smart move by the City here as there is very little leverage otherwise.



Last part of your post is spot on .

Those who hold power across all levels of government would never even consider changing plans to LRT or any other technology for various political, private and public interest reasons at this stage. Even those close to power who are not all that warm on the issue wouldn't touch it. The usual vocal subway opposition (mainly activist NDP/union special interest groups) will continue to do what they do to be anti-Ford and marketers of the LRT technology. So I fully understand why LRT will seem still relevant to some while upload details are hashed out and likely continue right up until the line is built. Keep in mind most NDP candidates within Scarborough have been either fully supportive of the subway or completely silent. The majority of those that vocally oppose the subway are now completely irrelevant in the process so if give it a shade above 0% chance.

"never even consider" changing plans seems a bit risking to claim. I wouldn't say there's a 100% chance the SSE will happen. Already we've seen (and I'm going by memory here) the Minister say the new SSE stations will be paid for by the private sector. While I agree the chances are low the SSE won't happen and LRT will instead, there's the chance the Ford gov will get cold feet when they see the cost, or the NDP will do a "Nixon in China' and change their position.

One would think the 905 and 905 MPPs would be concerned at the cost of the SSE given the rumours on GO RER/Expansion here.

 

[robmausser]

If the province is going to upload the subway, which they are intent on doing, they better promise in writing that they will pay for new trains, ATC, etc etc. We as a city should get that in writing.

 

[JSF-1]

"never even consider" changing plans seems a bit risking to claim. I wouldn't say there's a 100% chance the SSE will happen. Already we've seen (and I'm going by memory here) the Minister say the new SSE stations will be paid for by the private sector. While I agree the chances are low the SSE won't happen and LRT will instead, there's the chance the Ford gov will get cold feet when they see the cost, or the NDP will do a "Nixon in China' and change their position.

One would think the 905 and 905 MPPs would be concerned at the cost of the SSE given the rumours on GO RER/Expansion here.

It goes beyond that even. No new trains, ATC, and Yard means no SSE. No SSE means no DRL, no DRL means no Yonge Extension. No new ATC compatible trains means no SSE, these new trains will need a new yard. No new Yard means Greenwood remains full meaning no space for DRL trains. No DRL means no capacity for the Yonge Extension. If you're an MPP or Councillor from Markham this is really bad news. We have reached a point where all three projects have become inseparably linked and we cannot have one without the others.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the province is going to upload the subway, which they are intent on doing, they better promise in writing that they will pay for new trains, ATC, etc etc. We as a city should get that in writing.

That commitment wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on, given that the Province can legislatively nullify any of its agreements.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It goes beyond that even. No new trains, ATC, and Yard means no SSE. No SSE means no DRL, no DRL means no Yonge Extension. No new ATC compatible trains means no SSE, these new trains will need a new yard. No new Yard means Greenwood remains full meaning no space for DRL trains. No DRL means no capacity for the Yonge Extension. If you're an MPP or Councillor from Markham this is really bad news. We have reached a point where all three projects have become inseparably linked and we cannot have one without the others.

In that case, we're getting nothing.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So what's the over under on John Tory even being alive by the time this thing opens. I'm 40 and I'm skeptical ill be alive.

It's been 10 years and not a single shovel on the ground. In fact, we don't even have a timetable on when we can expect to get shovels in the ground...

 

[OneCity]

"never even consider" changing plans seems a bit risking to claim. I wouldn't say there's a 100% chance the SSE will happen. Already we've seen (and I'm going by memory here) the Minister say the new SSE stations will be paid for by the private sector. While I agree the chances are low the SSE won't happen and LRT will instead, there's the chance the Ford gov will get cold feet when they see the cost, or the NDP will do a "Nixon in China' and change their position.

One would think the 905 and 905 MPPs would be concerned at the cost of the SSE given the rumours on GO RER/Expansion here.

The strength of the subway has always been beyond underestimated by many here. Until its built there's always a chance I guess as nothing is absolute but one thing I doubt Ford wont get cold feet on is building subway infrastructure.

905ers don't really care for the Scarborough Centre LRT-subway debate as really only a few mainly inner Toronto councillors refuse to let go of. Most people all over the GTA just want infrastructure to move forward. No politician of importance is even remotely rallying against the line. Furthermore as far as 905ers go some should also see another subway extension getting the green light and others starting discussion for future Central connections.

Scarborough Centre is set to see massive private and public revitalization over the coming decades all based around the subway connection and much of this development should be used to help fund other stops. I imagine the development around SCC alone could pay a good chunk of Lawrence and any funding raised is a bonus. Will they receive all? Who knows, I don't think it matters and its long overdue to be exploring partnerships on development around stations.

Its unfortunate the City removed the stops but the lack of ability to fund subways from the get go and inability to agree on mode is exactly why future subway capital needed to be taken away from the City. Once the design is amended to add the stops back In id say the line is basically irreversible.

 

[Allandale25]

It goes beyond that even. No new trains, ATC, and Yard means no SSE. No SSE means no DRL, no DRL means no Yonge Extension. No new ATC compatible trains means no SSE, these new trains will need a new yard. No new Yard means Greenwood remains full meaning no space for DRL trains. No DRL means no capacity for the Yonge Extension. If you're an MPP or Councillor from Markham this is really bad news. We have reached a point where all three projects have become inseparably linked and we cannot have one without the others.

I do understand the list of things required for the SSE, but one question about one item. Why is ATC required for the SSE? Couldn't they just run trains (aside from the fact they need more), without it? What's the technical explanation?