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GO Transit Electrification (Metrolinx, Proposed)

My point was that it was relevant to Toronto because Stadler is now also offering hydrogen trains which means Alstom, Siemens, and Stadler {3 of the biggest rail suppliers in the world} are now offering hydrogen trains.
 
My point was that it was relevant to Toronto because Stadler is now also offering hydrogen trains which means Alstom, Siemens, and Stadler {3 of the biggest rail suppliers in the world} are now offering hydrogen trains.

1: they are in the EU. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
2: Prototype in 2020, ETA to service: 2022 as per their press release. Unless you suggest we be the pilot partner and suddenly get approvals from TC, good luck getting anything remote to this before the next 2
elections as you have touted.
 
Hydrogen rail is making the news again and this time right in our own back yard......….Vancouver.

There has been a plethora of news in the Fraser Valley about bringing back the old interurban Valley rail corridor to connect the cities and population centres the burgeoning Fraser Valley. It has received a lot of backing from mayors and transit planners just in the last week. Only electrified service is being contemplated and catenary and/or battery aren't even being considered. If the line goes ahead {and there is a LOT of political pressure that it does especially because the NDP have halted the HWY#1 widening underway in the Valley} , the decision has already been made that it will be hydrogen. Battery doesn't have the range or long distance power and catenary would cost a small fortune to get it up and running...…….....sound familiar?

I think the new budget ,with the new emphasis on RER, increasingly looks like it maybe hydrogen. This is also bolstered by the fact that the province has made {if not yet officially} the decision that Metrolinx couldn't make in 5 years, the trains will be single level as the province has stated it wants a downtown tunnel.
 
I think the new budget ,with the new emphasis on RER, increasingly looks like it maybe hydrogen. This is also bolstered by the fact that the province has made {if not yet officially} the decision that Metrolinx couldn't make in 5 years, the trains will be single level as the province has stated it wants a downtown tunnel.

The BC proposal is interesting. I’m happy to see some agency which is a reasonable comparator to Ontario get active and plow ahead. They will learn a great deal and we will benefit from that learning. This is a lot better than Ontario being the first.

I have pretty much written off any hope that we will see catenary in the GTA before about 2040. (If it happens sooner, I’m willing to spring for donuts for the opening ceremony!). The upcoming budget will likely make that clear. The capital is needed elsewhere for the preferred transit projects. That in turn will likely bring down Smarttrack, since without electrification there is a practical limit to how many new stations can be added to GO service without slowing down the service.

The party line remains that the MOADBFOM vendor will make the choice. We will see.

- Paul
 
The end decision will of course, as with the Liberals, be political. As we know Ford is hyper-partisan and he wants to see real political benefits BEFORE the next election. He is learning from the Liberals primary mistake about RER, all the money didn't actually prove RER was on it's way which is why most Torontonians still saw it as a rather nebulous concept with no real examples of what it will turn out as. Had they brought in one single line as opposed to working on many at once with nothing yet to show for it, they would have gotten the political benefits which they didn't.

Ford wants some form of RER opening up BEFORE the next election to show that he is concerned about both transit and the environment. He also wants it especially for the 905 to secure his base. Catenary RER would not offer him that potential political windfall as it could never get up and running by the next election at Metrolinx construction speeds. Hydrogen however requires no infrastructure short of the fueling stations which is no different than catenary requiring a new substation.
 
The end decision will of course, as with the Liberals, be political. As we know Ford is hyper-partisan and he wants to see real political benefits BEFORE the next election. He is learning from the Liberals primary mistake about RER, all the money didn't actually prove RER was on it's way which is why most Torontonians still saw it as a rather nebulous concept with no real examples of what it will turn out as. Had they brought in one single line as opposed to working on many at once with nothing yet to show for it, they would have gotten the political benefits which they didn't.

Ford wants some form of RER opening up BEFORE the next election to show that he is concerned about both transit and the environment. He also wants it especially for the 905 to secure his base. Catenary RER would not offer him that potential political windfall as it could never get up and running by the next election at Metrolinx construction speeds. Hydrogen however requires no infrastructure short of the fueling stations which is no different than catenary requiring a new substation.


It's not that your stance on why catenary won't happen isn't likely to be true, but could you please stop referring to Doug Ford like he's a reasonable person who cares about transit and the environment? Come to Ontario sometime and you'll immediately see that as nothing more than a semi-literate sack of Cheez Whiz with weird dentures, he's just not that into the environment or transit at all.
 
I don't have to travel back to my home province to form an opinion. I actually happen to completely agree with you. He is a totally unreasonable individual and couldn't care less about transit or the environment per se. He does however care about acting on it because he knows that his 905 base are eager for a far superior transit system they have now and they want electric, non-polluting trains.

Intelligent, visionary, and empathetic are never words I would use to describe Ford but he is very street and politically savvy. He wants transit built in time for the next election to ensure getting those critical suburban 416 and 905 votes. Hydrogen is the ONLY viable option for RER that would allow him to do it.
 
Intelligent, visionary, and empathetic are never words I would use to describe Ford but he is very street and politically savvy. He wants transit built in time for the next election to ensure getting those critical suburban 416 and 905 votes. Hydrogen is the ONLY viable option for RER that would allow him to do it.

You raise an interesting point - what can actually be done by the next election, which is only 3 years away?

There’s no way a hydrogen based infrastructure could be done in that time. The EA and procurement would take a year, a further year to build the first vehicles, probably two for the fixed plant..... at best a demonstration service would be in place. The risk is that being a new technology, delays and unforeseens will creep into the project, and costs will slip, exceeding projections. Even if we agree that the underlying technology is sound ( I still think it’s not fully mature), it’s far too unpredictable a project to stake an election on. And far too few voters would see any change to their individual lives.

Better to keep plugging with bricks-and-mortar projects that have more predictable trajectories. That’s why Wynne was so in love with bigger GO stations...they didn’t add capacity, but they looked nice and people in the communities could actually see what they were getting. By 2022, Ford will be able to brag about 2WAD to Mount Joy, (maybe) Aurora, and (maybe) improvements to Bramalea and even to Kitchener, extended peak service to Stoney Creek, and maybe something better to Niagara. Neither wires nor hydrogen play in that equation.

- Paul
 
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Wynne's approach is also why she never got any of the green/environmental vote. Yes people want better transit and much improved GO service helped provide that but unfortunately all the greens saw was more polluting diesel trains on their way to brand new, free of charge, parking palaces.

Alstom would treat hydrogen trains in Toronto with tender loving care and would guarantee they run without incident knowing that Toronto is the 2nd largest transit agency in NA and all their future NA contracts will depend upon how they work in Toronto.
 
Wynne's approach is also why she never got any of the green/environmental vote. Yes people want better transit and much improved GO service helped provide that but unfortunately all the greens saw was more polluting diesel trains on their way to brand new, free of charge, parking palaces.

Alstom would treat hydrogen trains in Toronto with tender loving care and would guarantee they run without incident knowing that Toronto is the 2nd largest transit agency in NA and all their future NA contracts will depend upon how they work in Toronto.
It's not: Chicago's commuter network is much larger than ours, and when you factor in the suburban subway nature of San Francisco and DC, those two come out above us as well.
 
Alstom would treat hydrogen trains in Toronto with tender loving care and would guarantee they run without incident knowing that Toronto is the 2nd largest transit agency in NA and all their future NA contracts will depend upon how they work in Toronto.
as lead customer for Alstom Citadis Spirit, the rumoured issues with OC Transpo’s LRVs don’t really scream “tender loving care”. (See also the North American domination that arose from HHP-8 (part theirs) and PL42AC.

Which is not to say Alstom is bad, just that transit vehicles are complex pieces of assembled hardware, and glib assurances don’t move passengers on time and on budget.
 
Hydrogen rail is making the news again and this time right in our own back yard......….Vancouver.

There has been a plethora of news in the Fraser Valley about bringing back the old interurban Valley rail corridor to connect the cities and population centres the burgeoning Fraser Valley. It has received a lot of backing from mayors and transit planners just in the last week. Only electrified service is being contemplated and catenary and/or battery aren't even being considered. If the line goes ahead {and there is a LOT of political pressure that it does especially because the NDP have halted the HWY#1 widening underway in the Valley} , the decision has already been made that it will be hydrogen. Battery doesn't have the range or long distance power and catenary would cost a small fortune to get it up and running...…….....sound familiar?

I think the new budget ,with the new emphasis on RER, increasingly looks like it maybe hydrogen. This is also bolstered by the fact that the province has made {if not yet officially} the decision that Metrolinx couldn't make in 5 years, the trains will be single level as the province has stated it wants a downtown tunnel.

Whats unfortunate about the hydrogen talk is that it might effectively cause the "baby to be thrown out with the bathwater" on the Fraser Line.

The Fraser Line is a good idea, it has merit, but unfortunately, as do many technological projects in government, it will henceforth be known as the Hydrogen Line. If the hydrogen aspect doesnt pan out, you can say goodbye to the line, period. Thats how these government things and terrible news media reporting go; if they attack one portion of the project, the whole thing is in jeopardy. No one will want to associate with the "Fraser Hydrogen Fiasco" even if say, the project shifts from hydrogen to DMU or catenary. Its dead.
 

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